There is one HUGE difference in the way men and women view sex. Most men can have sex without the emotional attachment, most women cannot. There, simple, if you want meaningful sex, from a woman worth spending time with, be prepared for a relationship, not an arrangement, because in my experience, arrangements lead to two things, relationships or heartbreak..................................
Texas Joe-- Your weight loss and response about it, I bet are part of your clinical depression. Please, talk to your pcp about some meds for it. I know whereof I speak. I had to do it. The med I took did not make me foggy or anything else negative. It balanced the brain chemistry better so I could do what I had to. What's more, because I could function without all the gloom in my mind, I began to feel better because I was getting things done and could see the progress I was making. I didn't have to be on it long, and I haven't had to go back on it, because I learned ways to identify triggers and how to defuse them or avoid them. It is worth it. I've been following this thread, and can see both sides of the discussion. Men and women are wired differently, but I think we both are looking for a relationship in which we are valued, not just a commodity. In situations like ours, where we bear the loneliness of caregiving a person who can no longer participate in the usual give and take of a relationship, we become entrapped in a limbo land, cut off from the very necessary contact that every life requires. There were studies done on preemies and babies with minor problems in hospitals. Some were left in their isolets and touched or held only for changing and feeding. Others were held, cuddled and rocked twice a day in addition to their basic care. The ones with basic care, "failed to thrive". The ones with the extra attention improved and went home earlier than expected. We all require touching, joking,laughing,--attention. I see no reason why a caregiver, so inclined, shouldn't reachout to others to get the contact they need. But take the time to figure out--are you looking for a "slam bam" contact which means nothing and has no lasting benefit, or are you willing to start more slowly, and build a contact that can last a while and respect both parties. Widowed friends or friends from church can be good contacts to help with clothes shopping for your LO, or help with some advice on changes to the decor in the house (need new drapes?) whatever. Have lunch or dinner. Just visit over coffee. Start building companionship and see where it goes. No need to rush. Quality, over speed. Intimacy may come with time, maybe just good cuddling. May I say, you've indicated that you and your wife still are on occasion somewhat intimate (booby time). Be glad for that. The only hugs I've had in the last 19 out of 22 years of caregiving, have been when I've told Dh "I need a hug." I get a 20 second hug. That's it. Nothing more. Between his meds and VaD, he can't "perform" but there's no touches, no kisses, nothing. With my own disability, I don't plan to remarry--I'd never stick someone with caregiving me as a spouse. But I can definitely say that I hope to have a close friendship with lots of touching, and kissing, laughing and living.
The way it looks through my eyes at the moment, frank, that IS the only kind of "stable relationship" I'll ever again enjoy. I don't even remember what it feels like to be touched.....except by hugs at the end of some "session" at the psych's office! I doubt that anything will work out (bringing John home....he's in one of his crazy phases) and I just keep plugging along daily. Sometimes I fantacize about bringing a man home.....and letting him know when its time to go home. Wonder if I'd have any fun. But then, I think I'd just feel worse about myself. (secret squirrel)
My own secret.....sometimes I go up to the stock yard on auction days to sit there and people watch....and remember what a hard working man smells like!!! ('mybad)
My bride used to say, after I came in from working outside in the summer, that I smelled "hot", not bad. Kind of like a car engine that has no bad smell but just smells hot. Luckily I've never had the b.o. problem, but I did get a whiff of somebody one time that did and wow...it was almost as bad as skunk!
ttt for coco. Yes, there was a similar thread almost three years ago, and it attracted a good bit of comment, just as your recent thread has. I think the bottom line conclusion was that men are more comfortable with the idea of remarriage "AFTER" because men are more dependent on a spouse for for companionship -- they don't tend to form really close friendships with other men -- unlike women who do form such friendships and share personal stuff, etc. I know that I didn't want to be alone, and remarriage has worked out well for me. While I loved my DW of sixty years dearly, I've been much too busy building a new life during the two and a half years since she died to spend much time wallowing in grief. Life moves on.
You are all right. That sums it up. As a man, I have lived a life of respect and honor. Without doubt, I'd value friendship over sex. I'm younger but want to live my life for a time. I prefer Nikki's best friend arrangement. Married, been there done that. It's all about self control. Just have to put it up front and trust yourself. I'll be a best friend one day and honor it. To loose it would be a great lose. Sex is great but true friends is greater. Excellant, open discussion. You are all great people.
soolow, great comment! I also want to live my life for a while. I would love to have a good friend, but no romantic relationship (I don’t understand why some people can’t believe that it can happen). I think that if I did have the chance for romance I would remember the care giving days & that would be like a “cold shower”! Someone on this thread or the other one said something to the effect that if you find someone & have a relationship (no marriage) & dementia starts showing in that person you can just bow out & walk away because you aren’t legally obligated to care for the person. That is true enough………but who would really do that if you really cared for the person? I’m not much of a gambler so when this game is over I will just “fold ‘em”!
My best friend in high school was a guy - nothing romantic. The hardest thing when I got married was having to give up our friendship because my husband did not believe there could be male/female friendships without romance. Ironic that all through our marriage he has found women at work to use as confidants instead of me and saw nothing wrong with that, but let me even talk with a man - well you know the response. In hindsight I would not have given him up - I would of either demanded he accept it or leave.
So, I do believe you can have male/female friendships without sex being either a part of it or focus of it.
I just re-read all of these and there is a lot of wisdom here. You have represented all sides of this. I particapated in the discussion 3 yrs ago, but, since my DW is in a NH and the loneliness really sets in, I have to admit that my feelings are somewhat different.
I posted recently that I would like to have a little sister to take out to dinner, etc. I would want her to be a 'sister' (sibling) in order to avoid some of the feelings that have been discussed.
In order to be brief ladies, I am the man that would fall in love and want more. Including intimacy, (if thats possible) so you will definitely want to avoid me. From my personal feelings, it would not be possible to be friends with a lovely, kind lady that smells like good perfume.
I need to tell you tho, that everything is on hold. My DW and I have been married 58 yrs on Feb 25, and I have never been unfaithful to her. And I'm not going to start now. Not bragging, at all, just a statement of fact.
My DH would have and did say NO, NO & NO! I tend to agree.
Of course, it all depends on the people, I know women very close to gay friends. My gay neighbor and I will soon be doing some room decorating together. We're good neighbors and one could say we're 'friends.'
Speaking of gays. Gay guys can be great friends. My grandson had a friend that was gay and when they use to come over to visit I had a great time with them. My dh was rather uncomfortable, this was before his Alz. but I didn't care because I loved visiting with them. Sometimes my Grandson would bring other friends too and it was a great time. I miss that. Now my Grandson is married and I don't get to see him that often. Hadn't thought about this for a long time.
My dh has almost stopped having conversation with me. He can talk...not always using the right words, but now if I didn't say something to him he probably would not say anything for who knows how long. He was always a great talker and me too and I really, really miss that. And, he sleeps most of the time..It makes me so sad. I feel so alone and so lost in this situation. Need to go to dr. and get something for my depression.
JudithKB: I know exactly how you feel. The term you used "so alone" fits a lot of us on these boards.
Vickie: Thanks. I appreciate the finer things of life: A pretty lady. Roses for birthdays and anniversaries. Dinner with a white table cloth and a glass of fine wine. And the smell of good perfume. I might not ever get them again, but, I had them and I have good memories and this conversation has cheered me up a little bit.
This ain't bad for having grown up as the son of Okla sharecroppers.
I have been reading these comments and I have to add two cents worth. As most of you know my spouse passed on last September after almost seven years of this disease. Her last years were very hard on both of us and with me as her caregiver made our personal relationship impossible for over two years. There were trys but not happenings. Now she has been gone for a period of time and I am left alone to deal with my future life and I can say it has not been easy. But I can say now that I have met a very nice lady online who also lost her spouse to cancer almost two years ago and like me does not want to live the rest of her life alone. We have met recently in person and spent a day together just talking and enjoying each others company. We have talked every day thanks to email and messenger but this coming weekend we are planning on getting together for maybe three days and go out to a singles dance and spend time getting to know each other better. We do not live close together so seeing each other frequently is not possible. We have talked about what we are expecting from each other and right now we agreed that friendship is first and foremost, if that works then we will have to talk further and agree where our relationship is headed and we will talk about it as it changes. Neither of us have any further expectations because we both agree that you have to be best friends before you can ever feel comfortable enough with someone to become sexual so only time will tell and after three years and being seventy I don't even know if the darn thing will even work anymore. I have told her this and she agrees that what happens is what is supposed to happen nothing more. So I say to all of you don't be afraid to venture out and see what God sends to you. You like me may be very surprised that He has a whole new plan for a new life that you will never experience if you don't trust in Him. I know that the woman He sent to me is more than I ever expected to come into my life at this late date but I trust Him and know that He will not lead me wrong I just have to trust and follow Him. Only then will I be able to experience what this new life will bring. Sex is not at the top of the list but it is there somewhere on the list we just have to agree where and how high on the list of priorities it is. I am sure that not all will agree with my comments but I am sure that a lot of you will be able to relate. Just trust and have faith and your rewards will be greater than anything you could have dreamed. If it turns out that we don't make it together it will not be from lack of trying. We only live once and our spouse is not coming back. God bless you all and yes I am still reading the blogs. Bruce D *
I think it might depend on your age. I'm only 54 and I hope this isn't all there is. It would sure suck if having a companion or friend with benefit isn't in my future. But a new husband.....that right now isn't in the picture.
Glad to hear that things are seemingly working out for you, Bruce -- go for it! Hope things work out as well for you as they seemingly are for TJ and GC and Nancy B and others. I wonder how Stunt Girl is making out with her Texas Ranger?
Have had two close women friends forever, one WB the other more likes member of the family. we really lean on one, being there for each other thru her breakups , surgeries, parental issues, hurricanes, joining us on vacation ,etc. DW has know both since high school and college days we all spend a great deal of time together and never a conflict in the roles played in our life.
Been really down and depressed due to eye surgery not healing as anticipated An email from one of the aforemetioned friends just arrived. She's got meetings in Boca mon -friday . She's wanted to know if we'd be up to her to spending the weekend before the meetings start with us. There was even a flicker of a smile, awareness and a squeeze of my finger when I told DW that K will visiting. Serious attitude adjustment just what the MD ordered
Sandi, I'm with you. Once this phase of my life is over, I want to do what I want when I want IF I want!!! I got over my low self esteem a long time ago and consider myself to be my own best company. If I want to go out, I will go to the movie with my sister and there is still card club once a month with some friends I have had longer than my husband. I am looking forward to sitting on my butt and not having to jump and run for everything. You go, Bruce!
I've always had close friendships with men - with never even a hint of sexual undertones. I have become friends with a man at work - he is single and my age - and we mostly talk about sports, Ohio and his dating experiences! He is a lifelong bachelor. He meets women through match.com and similar online sites. He likes to tell me about his dates! I am not even remotely attracted to him ... but I like the friendship that has blossomed between us.
I have another good male friend - we used to work together about 10 years ago. He has since moved to New England, is married and has a couple kids. We email all day long!
It is indicative of our own conceptions when we define those we become friends with by gender or role.
I have always had female friends that have zero sexual overtones. If I didn't I would be prejudiced in the same way I might consider women unfit for some roles in life. Which is just bogus.
You get along with and can have fun with some of the people you meet along the way. Gender has no bearing on that unless we put those boundries there or they do.
I was going to comment on one of the dating threads but decided my thoughts might be more appropriate in this one.... I too have always had male friends, but I never went out alone with them, say to dinner or a movie etc. In my youth we went out as a group of friends and later in life we went out as a couple. Lynn was secure in our love and was not jealous of my male friends, but then again, I never did anything that would give him cause to be. I never felt a need to go out with a member of the opposite sex just to hang out as friends. So it seems natural to me that I wouldn't do so now either.
I am more fortunate than some here in that my house is not empty, my sister and her children moved in with us some years ago. Since Lynn's placement my sister fell in love and I also allowed her fiancé to move in with us. I of course long for the love and companionship I had with Lynn, but I am not lonely. With two young teenagers in the house it is rarely dull lol and I in fact sometimes crave and need alone time.
But yes, I desperately miss the connection Lynn and I shared. I also know it is Lynn himself I miss, not just the connection with a man. Dating is not an option for me.
I am rethinking my comment to this thread back in 2008. I do still believe it is possible to have a strictly platonic friendship with a man, (most anything is possible) but I don't think it is likely and I think it was easier when we were kids.
I say this because in the last year or so I have had 3 "friends" contact me about going out with them. When I tell them that no I couldn't possibly date anyone because I am still very much in love with Lynn, without fail they all said they completely understood, but they would still like to go out as just friends. And without fail, they always wanted more than friendship, even though I never did go out for that "innocent" cup of coffee.
2 of the 3 I really liked as people too. One I had a bit of history with, a shared kiss as a child. That one I did text back and answered emails because he and Lynn were always such good friends, they were really close. It was great at first, sharing our memories of Lynn, it was wonderful in fact! I didn't realize how badly I wanted and needed to talk about the man Lynn used to be. And I will admit it was flattering as well. As I feared it would, sure enough soon the talks switched to, come on lets go out, a harmless date..blah blah blah
With each no I uttered the reasons got more intense why we should date. He even told me that he loved Lynn too .. and my instinct was to reply, really? then why are you asking out his wife? That put a stop to the calls and texts for awhile, but not long. Next came the you have been through so much, I want to be your hero speeches. Really? I became my own damn hero, your services are not needed...... he is still texting me every couple of weeks, even though I have not replied once since February. Just friends my butt!
I would have liked another friend, it really would be nice to go out and enjoy platonic friendships like I used to. I think that is more a teenage thing, now in my 40's I have found that now there is always that underlining thought of wanting more, even though I make it clear I wont.
One day I will be ready to venture out again, but it will not be one on one, it would have to be a group setting. As for now, if there is a movie I want to see, I take one of the kids. If there is something I would like a male perspective on, I ask my brothers. Much safer that way and less hurt feelings too.
I understand Nikki, it might seem odd but my best friend whom I am very close to is a very beautiful and fun woman. We are as close as one can be and not be married. Having said this, it is nothing but platonic. We are different enough that we would probably kill each other if we were to try, lol. But as friends we are great. I would never think of violating that friendship. Of course I realize, I am not your average bear.
No Cheval, it doesn't seem odd to me at all. Like I first posted on this thread I too had a very close male friend most of my life and it was strictly platonic. Life goes on, people move on, he got married and Lynn got Alzheimer's, our paths just do not cross anymore. There again though, he has been a lifelong friend from my school days.
If he were to call and ask me to go out, I would in a heartbeat. I know him and his intentions. Others I am not so sure about. Until we build that gated community we have often talked about here, where we help each other out and go out on platonic dates, I guess I will just stick with taking the kids out. :)
I have had good and long relationships with women without sex but only if they were so by nature or design. But just as Cherval said about not being average, I'm not normal.
I don't forget within two minutes that I'm in the left turn lane to turn left. And I don't blame others that they do forget. I don't mind that it's no where near just politicians that say one thing at this place and another at that one.
Look at what Jane Austen did with Pride & Predjudice. She didn't know men (by her own account) but she did know women. I say it doesn't matter which sex we choose here because they're identical with planned differences.
Elizabeth was aware. Jane was nice. Lydia was an adrenaline junkie. The book reader was twisted. Four of the five were marked to be victims of circumstance where Jane had her looks and only Elizabeth looked around, took stock, and remembered what she learned previously comparing it to what she was learning now.
That I believe is the overall answer. Jane Austen. No, but that very few are aware of their own ideas, can articulate them so they are useful, and remember what it is they learned.
Down the road Nikki, I read in you it's unlikely you would be initiating something for some time and I know it's painful to even contemplate for you - but, if you look over the prospects who will undoubtedly be knocking at your door with the eye of a Miss Elizabeth Bennett, you will be just fine.
I agree with your thoughts, Wolf and I agree too with your account for NIkki...and when the time is right for her...some one will be one very lucky guy...but all in the course of time. We are all different. I too am like Nikki and Elizabeth Bennett...I was beyond lucky and blessed when I found my DH who is like Nikki's dear Lynn, many years older than I am. I too can't get my head about being without him... And if I were a betting lady, it will be his cardiac issues that condemn him before the AD does. He was exposed to AO in two tours in Viet Nam and has many of the assosciated diseases that came with that. I wonder if AD will be connected later on?
I would add, that men are different than women...you are from Mars and we are from Venus...and even among women we think differently so some are more in the socialization camp and others are like Nikki and me. And none of it is wrong.
Thank you Mimi for the lovely comment and thank you too Wolf for having more faith in me than I often have in myself. Some of the most comforting words one can hear "you will be just fine"
I do have the personality quirk that I need to analyze my feelings, thoughts and self. Often times overanalyzing. But I do believe it is necessary if one is to know their own values, morals and truths.
I will be honest about something here, when I joined facebook back in 2009 I did some of the games and conversed with some interesting people from around the world. I was very open about how much I still loved Lynn and the heartache of Alzheimer's disease. I am a smartass by nature and some people took to my personality and started leaving comments on my wall and writing me notes. I would be lying if I didn't admit it was rather flattering. Lynn was already in placement and I didn't see anything wrong with the harmless flirting. It meant nothing to me, I didn't know these people and I would never see them in 'real life'.
Of all the people I corresponded with, both male and female, there was one guy I had an instant connection with. He was clear across the world, I felt safe in taking the connection a bit further with email and instant messaging. We talked for simply hours. I had little to no support and after years of fighting this war my family was no longer the sympathetic sounding board I needed. It was nice telling our love story, sharing our life story, being able to express myself to someone who showed sincere interest. We talked about his family, mine, life, everything and nothing. He was a safe and amazing friend.
Until he told me he was in love with me. My instant reaction was are you crazy!? You don't even know me! I never dreamed one could fall in love just from talking with someone you have never even met. I ended up really hurting him and I still feel badly about it. It was not my intention at all. I learned enough from that experience to cloud my perspective on the 'just friends' theory.
Emily said something that really stuck with me, I couldn't remember it exactly so I looked it up ... "But I would add this word of warning, which depends on your personal libido level and such--If you're physically attracted to your conversation-mate, and vice-versa, it's going to be mighty hard to keep things strictly conversational. So this is something that probably ought to be thought about. If not now, you'll surely have to think about it later."
Though I am aware that it is Lynn I missing so much, that no other man could possibly fill the gaping hole in my soul, I will also admit to a slight vulnerability, one that screams, best not even open that can of worms!
"Down the road Nikki, I read in you it's unlikely you would be initiating something for some time and I know it's painful to even contemplate for you -"
It is Wolf, very much so. I do know there will come a time when God will call Lynn Home, I KNOW it, but I simply cannot think about it. It has the power to destroy me and my mind will not let me contemplate it too long at all. Am tearing up just writing this.....
Dear Nikki, You are one amazing human being.............this is beyond tough stuff. I LOVE your....always BEAUTIFUL honesty...feel away...My loving "sister" You are more than OK.
Take time to think about all these Wonderful People are saying to YOU.