First, let me say that this NOT a post against men. Not at all. It is just an observation, and I was wondering what everyone else thought about it. I am looking for opinions from BOTH men and women.
This website has been in operation for almost 3 years, and in that time, we have often discussed seeking companionship from the opposite sex when our spouses are lost in the Alzheimer haze. We have also discussed dating and remarriage after our spouses die.
In those almost 3 years, the consensus seems to be that the men feel the need for companionship and/or love and/or intimacy while their spouses are still living and soon after they have died. I have heard of one or two women having had a brief affair while their husbands were still living, but not ONE of our widows has remarried. NOT ONE that I know of. Some are still in deep mourning. Others are finding activities and female friends with whom to travel, shop, and dine. But no one has remarried. Or even has a steady "boyfriend" as far as I am aware.
What does this say about men and women? It is my opinion that the women who have gone through the AD journey with their husbands, and have nurtured and cared for everyone their whole lives, are now FREE TO CATER TO THEMSELVES. And they like it. That doesn't mean they have forgotten or are not still grieving for their husbands. It means they don't want to be a caregiver or nurturer to anyone but themselves for a change. For once in their lives, they have only themselves to answer to, and it is a welcome change.
On the other hand, men are used to being taken care of and do not seem comfortable alone.
This is just my opinion, and as I said, in no way a comment against men. Just an observation. What do you think?
Joan-I never want to be responsible for another person's well being in this life. Once is enough. Making life and death decisions is a terrible thing to have to do. While my husband is still alive I will honor my marriage vows. When he is gone I will find comfort within my self.
I feel the need for love, companionship, and intimacy. Absolutely no question. I'm a woman. This doesn't mean I want to nurture or care for anyone. I don't. I just want a friend and partnership. And a chance to not always be the one in charge.
What it says is that men and women are different. I won't comment on why women do what they do for fear of getting it as wrong as I feel you got it for men. I think it is reasonable to accept that men and women approach the world, the people in it and relationships differently. Many men who are in their 60s, 70s or 80s now, lived and worked in a very male dominated workforce and may well have seen themselves as the one doing the "Taking care of". They may have put off being emotionally present while they were putting in 60 or 70 hour weeks paying for houses and college and essentially everything else and planned on enjoying "the emotional part' of the marriage "now". Instead... they got front row seats while the loves of their lives shriveled up and died. I think it is perfectly reasonable for a man staring at the last few years of his life to want to make the most of those years.
The men here who have spent the last 5, 10, 15 or more years as primary caregiver to a dying wife have certainly not been used to being taken care of.
Many men will remarry within a year of their wife's death. It's my feeling that men do not want to be alone. Women, on the other hand, frequently don't even have a choice--there is a shortage of men simply because women live longer. At this point, I don't think I would even be interested in looking.
In Genesis God said, "It is not good for man to be alone." But why can't I find anywhere that it says the same for women.
Considering what Thunder said, and how the responses of women, as a group, don't even follow a set pattern, I think it's accurate to say that--while we may be able to draw some gender-line generalizations--they're not going to hold up that well once you look at individuals. There are too many variables that are going to affect how likely a particular Alz.Spouse--of either sex--would be to want a new relationship. Did you feel eclipsed in your original marriage, or was it a fulfilling equal partnership? Were you primarily a caregiver (even prior to AD,) and if so, did that suit you or are you glad to be done with it? Do you have a network of family/friends that mostly meets your needs, or are you a sort of one-person dog?
There's too much in the question that is about individual personality and the effect prior relationships had on your current outlook to call it on gender lines. I think. Another interesting point that just occurred to me is that there may be generational variations that are more (or as) significant as gender differences. For example, if you take the current crop of Alz. Spouses, you've got people whose thoughts about relationships and marriage were formed in the days of I Love Lucy, and--at the other end--folks from the world where living together (or simply remaining independent) seems as acceptable an option as marriage.
Good summary, Joan. My dad married a 2nd time two years after mother passed; he was in his 70s and said he was lonely, and she (2nd wife) was good company. He'd been very hateful to my grandmother when a man visited w/her on her front porch or he or his family invited her for dinner. Dad couldn't fry an egg, do laundry, etc. (or wouldn't), but that was part of the era, I think. Home after surgery, mother got out of bed to cook something, and dad said, "Don't bother to fix anything for me; I've already eaten." He'd gone to a restaurant and bought himself a meal w/o a thought of bringing something to her. I hope he was in the minority. I won't be looking for another man to care for when hb passes. He hasn't taken care of me during our 47 yrs of marriage. I always had to work, keep house, protect the children; left to him, we'd have no $, house or anything because he said, "I thought I'd die before I was 50." I look forward to doing what I want, when I want--being selfish??? Maybe. Many men I know were/are willing and able to work long hours and still have a solid family relationship. Everyone's needs & wants are different; so I guess we can't say what's best for anyone else.
There is truth in what Joan and Bluedaze and others say....there is also truth in what Thunder says.
I know some widows here who haven't moved on with their lives - some due to mourning, some stay for the family we have here; some have moved on, but have built single lives for themselves; some have companions and are very happy; one (that I know of) is considering remarriage, but hasn't decided; and some of the widowers are still single as well.
The women who post here, as well as the men who post here, are CAREGIVERS. We're the ones who are making the sacrifices to make certain that our spice are well cared for and to understand what is happening to them at each stage and problem and how to help them through it safely. Most men and women here are going to need time to recoup and regroup afterwards. And aren't in a hurry to find someone else nor remarry.
I know of two of us who are on their second marriages and were caregivers in their first marriages as well. They took another chance on love.
None of us know what is in store for us in the future. Should we search for companionship, most will find it. Some will find love. Some won't. Some will not even be looking for companionship, much less marriage, and love is going to strike them down stronger than the first time!!! AND, they will have years and years of happiness yet ahead of them. Joy, travel, fun, and conversation. It does exist - and will happen to some.
I remain "flexible" as to my feelings about the future......I'm going to just wait and see what God has in store for me down the road.....I mean, let's face it, if George came by AFTER and said let's go to my house for dinner, I'll go!!! <grin>
My husband and I hada wonderful marriage....so this is for disussion only. Men tend to look for younger women to marry so maybe if the woman looks for a younger man she might be inclined to take the plunge again...although I don't think she will find one who will choose her for her inner qualities over a young chick with a firmer body.
I live in an over 55 community and I see quite often that the men have another woman living with them soon after their wives have died. The widows seen quite content. Sure, they're still lonely but they keep busy. I think most men just can't handle being alone. Women always seem to have plenty to keep them busy such as shopping, going places with other women, etc.
I think there is validity to what everyone has said. Especially the generational part. That is a big factor. Men and women in their 40's and under do not look at or participate in relationships the same way as those in their 70's and 80's.
Thunder made an excellent point - men in their 60's, but mostly 70's and 80's felt their "taking care of" job was to work as much as possible - Sid was a 70-80 hour a week worker- to provide for their family. They were not "emotionally present" because they were too exhausted after working so many hours. So when they retired, they expected emotional companionship, togetherness, travel, from their wives. Instead they got 10 years of caregiving. So when their wives pass away, they still want that emotional togetherness. And if you're in your 70's, you feel you don't have time to wait, thus, getting married quite soon. (I met a couple who were in their mid 80's when both spouses passed away from AD. They said they didn't have time for a long engagement, so they married right away,and were quite happy together.)
On the other hand, while Thunder and the other men were out working constantly, the wives were at home nurturing the family, and when the time came for her to have some retirement fun with her husband, she ends up being a caregiver for another 10+ years. When her husband passes away, she feels it's finally her time for HER. Not that dinner dates, intellingent conversation, and some hot sex (honestly, I'm not kidding on that one, and it's not meant to offend anyone - just the truth) with a man on occasion wouldn't be welcome, just that we don't want to live with them on a permanent basis. Again, just my opinion.
Very valid points made here, both male and female. I am 3 months into widowhood. I am doing very well. I mourned for years about most of the things you all are also mourning about. I choose to remain active on this site and participate as I choose. My true friends are here and on my e-mail lists. You are my “second family”. The years of isolation and staying home have taken their toll on all of us. I crave conversation – both female and male.
I am beginning to “spread my wings or at least flap them”. Going on trips with friends and family, having lunches with new lady friends who are also recent widows and enjoying my freedom from responsibilities. I think it is great when someone finds another special person to be in their life.
Mary, if George invites me to visit his home, I will certainly give serious thought to accepting – someday. (grin)
Hey, George, pick up the phone and call me.....Next time I just want to be the girl friend. Problem is who would be interested in a 82 year ole lady. I know, a 90 year ole man...LOL....Don't mean to poke fun because this can be a serious problem for you younger ones but my thinking is just to follow the path that life sends your way and don't close in open doors.
I have been thinking along the same lines. By the time this is over, who would be interested in me anyway? A man in his 80's. NO OFFENSE to men in their 80's - they are very nice and loving, but all I would be looking for is some wild fun. Of course, by that time, I may be too old to indulge in any wild fun. <Sigh>
Most of us would all like a companion and someone who cared. A friend. I think that most men will want sex, so that has to be factored in, too. Depending on your age, health and inclination, it's something to be considered.
I'm 54 and only 2 weeks into widowhood. Right now I can't imagine ever being married again. Maybe someday a loving companion would be something to consider, but right now I just want to be with myself and my friends and family. Something I've learned along the way though is Never Say Never! My brother is on one of the internet dating sites, I was helping him answer the questions on the application. I do believe that if I were to ever start dating again, one of my "requirements" would be a clean bill of health and an MRI!
A lot of good points of view. I think that part of what we are looking at here is the divide between the WWII generation and the Boomers. And as emily said... a lot of individual variation. Did you feel eclipsed ... great word... very insightful... I did indeed feel eclipsed. My wife fought depression her entire life and while I always felt that she loved me as much as she possibly could... it wasn't always enough. If I may get just a tad personal here... she never said no to me. I suppose some men might think me the luckiest man alive, she was gorgeous and sexy and such a thing could hardly be seen as bad. The thing is... I am not exactly a typical man. For all that she loved me she was sexually passive and never saying no was not the same as saying I want you. There is a huge difference between being "wanted" and being "allowed". I had hopes for being wanted ...... I guess not... Thanks for nothing AD.
Personally I am not far enough into the AD journey to even answer that for myself. But a friend who lost her husband to cancer put it this way, she had to slog through the long journey with the cancer which was terrible. Before the cancer journey, she was in the position where she had to always defer to her husband's wishes about just about everything including decor for the home. Now she can do things her way and does not have to answer to anyone. With that said, she is in a committed relationship with a nice man who lost his wife to cancer. They are both wealthy, both have very different taste in furnishings and he loves pets and she does not. So in her world she has the best of both worlds, companionship and independence. I think perhaps how we may find ourselves looking at this question will, in large part, depend upon how our own lives have been and in the end how worn down we become from the AD journey. I suppose we will all have to find a certain comfort level for ourselves before we can even think about what the next step will be.
It's a good question. Would I or wouldn't I want to marry again, or even live with someone? I believe now that I wouldn't. I agree with what Joan says, and I think I've even mentioned this before on another thread. I don't think I'll ever feel as alone as I do right now with my husband here in the same house. But, when I am really ALONE I want to be by myself. The thought of worrying about another person is almost too much for me. I've done it all my life, including taking care of my mom and dad, up until a year and a half ago. I want some time for myself to do what I want, go where I want when I want. I want my husband here as long as possible, but if he should go before me (and I worry I'll die before him) I'll never marry again.
Recently spoke w/an old friend whose wife died from brain cancer about the time DH died from AD. She had many of the same situations, even unable to walk, so we had similar experiences. After she died, 7-8 yrs ago, he met a woman and they have a relationship but no marriage. Many in her family have AD, but they get it in their 70's, not younger. She now has it about 2 yrs, she's 82, he's 80, and he has committed to caring for her, they do not live together. He's a saint, or maybe he has nothing else special to do & it gives him a purpose when he wakes in the morning, but..... I'd take care of DH again, and if I remarried & truly loved, I'd care for him as well, BUT I will not remarry. I loved being wife & mom, keeping a home, volunteering, working and all, but now I have freedom I've never felt before and I won't give it up.
There is something to be said about being w/someone your own age & I have a gentleman friend who is an old geezer, bald & paunchy, but he suits me just fine. We see each other about once a week, talk about everything, laugh, and are very affectionate. I, too, used to wonder if anyone would want me, elderly, after the AD journey. Why do we, especially women, think aging is unattractive? It really isn't. I go to reunions and while we all age, most look pretty good for being elderly, most are healthy and almost all have had some sadness, but with a little hair color, moisturizing the wrinkles & mascara we're doing OK.
Recently I saw a current photo of Schwartznegger in a swimsuit. I downloaded it and looked for one when he was muscle man of the world. I have them together w/a current photo of me. I'm matronly, the youthful body is gone, but I'm a g'mother, what can one expect. And I never took care of my body the way he did, I just let it be, but he got flabby, too. When I compare our ages and our looks, I realize even the best of us age. I won't say 'embrace' the aging, but we shouldn't be so negative about it. Now that I'm here, I find that I really like elderly people and their very special beauty.
I am not sure why some men get right into another marriage other than that I do believe that most men spend their lives preparing for retirement when they plan to travel and just live a simple life with their wives. I have spent my working adult life building a nest egg for my wife in case I died first and now that doesn’t appear to be the way things will turn out and to be very honest about it I don’t know what I am going to do. I love Kathryn more than even I knew I would and looked forward to our retirement together and the times we would have as we became older. I am broken hearted, even now, before she is gone.
One reason I think that some men remarry soon is because the relationships between men and men and women and women are so different. You will hear women refer to each other as girlfriends. You will not hear men refer to men as boyfriends. I am not sure why but men are raised in such a way that there is a distance to their relationship with other men. It is ok to have a buddy, but it is just not the same thing as women having a girlfriend. I can’t explain the difference so I hope you understand what I am trying to say here.
The one thing I can tell you for sure is that I will never remarry. I have had two wives and loved them both. They both became ill, my first wife with Hodgkin’s disease and now Kathryn with EOAD. I have cared for them both and do not regret having cared for them. However, I will never put myself in the position of having to care for another.
I think I will play a lot of golf, attend my Lodge meetings, and go out with friends, and go to the movies. I will also do some traveling. It would be great to have a companion to travel with and if she enjoys sex that would be great, but if she doesn’t want sex that will be ok too.
What I am about to say may sound mean but it is the way I feel right now today. If I do meet a woman that does enjoy sex she will be taking her toothbrush home with her in the morning. I will not let her move into my house or leave any of her things there when she is not there. That may sound hard and unfeeling, if so I am sorry, but that is how I feel about it today.
All that said I am not sure that I will have any relationship with another women because I don’t think I will ever stop loving Kathryn.
Wow, this has certainly been an interesting thread!! I'd have to say that I think Emily really nailed it ... there is SO MUCH individual variation. I suppose the only honest answer for many of us is that until we are in the situation of seeing our spouses pass away from AD, we can't accurately predict just what we will do. I know that in my situation of a wonderfully loving and caring marriage that is just 2 months short of 43 years, I cannot imagine being in love with another woman. And yet, precisely because of our loving and caring marriage, I also cannot see myself without similar companionship in a loving and caring relationship in the future. Will I eventually seek that companionship and relationship by getting married again? I can't see that happening. By living with someone but not getting remarried? I can't see that happening, either. By just seeking intimate companionship or a relationship with a special friend when it suits both of us? To be honest, I think that may be my future ... but, again, until I actually face that situation, I cannot really know for sure. For now, I'm just hoping to milk my current marriage for as long as I can, hoping against hope that my wife and I have quite a few good few years left together!
I was widowed the first time when I was 37 years old. I had been in a good marriagefor 19 years to a good man who died suddenly from a heart attack at age 45. I swore that I would never marry again because losing them hurt too much and I would not put myself in that position again. 1 year later my Charlie entered my life and 6 months later we were married. Now, 23 years later, I have been a caregiver for nearly 3 years. His decline has been swift. From diagnosis to needing total care in approximately 18 months. He has been in a facility now for 9 months. At 37, I had had a good marriage and I wanted that for myself again. Now, at 61, not so much. I love Charlie and would have loved to grow old with him whether it had been traveling the country or rocking on the back porch. But that is not to be and I think now that when the journey is over, I just want to rest and live my remaining years in peace and quiet. But as we all have said, NEVER say NEVER so I won't rule anything out.
Well, if you sound mean, then so do I. I really liked the toothbrush analogy - it is how I also feel. And I'm not a guy!
At whatever age I will be when this AD journey is over, I cannot imagine myself marrying and taking the chance of being a caregiver again. I will not have the desire or energy. I want freedom, peace and quiet, and no strings attached sex.
Nope. I really meant what I said. Ocassional sex with someone I find attractive and can send home in the morning. At least that is how I feel now. I hope that doesn't offend anyone - I am just trying to be honest. I hope everyone realizes I am talking about AFTER my AD journey is over. As everyone has said, it is impossible to know how we will feel when we are actually faced with the circumstances.
Who knows? Cupid's arrow may hit me hard again, and I will find myself married. I just can't see it that way now.
Joan, I was referring to "NO STRINGS SEX" - which gave me a picture in my mind of sex with the strings attached but cut....too graphic for the morning hours!!! <grin>
I was trying to be humorous....but it fell flat.....
Well, I was married for over 40 years when my husband died. I have been a widow for two years now. I have no desire to remarry or even have a relationship. I am happy being by myself and doing whatever I want to do. I am alone, but not lonely. That being said, I would never tell someone else what to do. I do believe some people are happier when part of a couple and they find a compatible person and they can enjoy a fulfilling life. I say "go for it". I just don't see that as a part of my future.
We have been married for almost 26 years and at this time I really have no desire for another relationship. Although we have no children and I've worked during our entire marriage, I feel like I was always the "caregiver". I will be very lonely and sad when DH passes but I do not want another relationship- I do not want to feel that I have to take care of someone else (and we're boomers).
At this point I can't imagine another relationship. My wife and I started dating in high school, when I was 14 years old. I never dated another girl seriously after that. This coming June will be our 56th anniversary. I don't know what I will do after she goes (which may be several more years since her general health is good). In the meantime I will take care of her and try to enjoy what I can.
I just spent 15 minutes composing my comments on this subject then deleted all of it. I'm very conflicted. I hope people keep posting here because it is helping me come to terms with my feelings about life after dementia. xox cs
I don't get it...what do strings have to do with anythng? It appears to me that anything goes...if it feels good, do it. Like live alone, have a friend with or w/o benefits, live with someone, or marry...It's whatever turns you on, so to speak. I also agree with the idea that women can have girlfriends, but men don't have boyfriends (unless gay). And that's why some women can do w/o men, but 99.9% of the men can't do w/o a woman. How's that grab 'ya?
It really has to do with the difference in the way male and female brains are wired. When women get together, they meet each other's emotional needs by talking about their problems and feelings. When men get together, they talk about sports and work - it's highly unlikely to find men friends talking to each other about "emotional issues". Men depend upon their wives or girlfriends to give them the emotional support they don't get from their men friends.
The nice part about this thread is that we are thinking about the future and sort of planning for it. That means that there will be a future.
I love being in a relationship and at this point think I might want one again someday. I like sharing my life with someone. If it doesn't happen that is okay too. I will still find things to do and pursue my interests.
The comment about men's relationships with other men and women's being different is very true. Women have girlfriends and guys have buddies. Women will talk through their darkest secrets with their girlfriends. Guys not so much. Women will hug and hold their friends when they are down. Guys tend to try and handle things by themselves. I know with my husband, I was the one that made most of the plans to go out with other couples and have friends over. I provided socialization for him during our relationship. I also made my own arrangements to see girlfriends and he made his own arrangements to play golf and/or tennis with buddies. Now as the part of my life that included him is gone, I am very glad that I maintained my relationships with girlfriends as that is what is providing my socialization now.
So, for me, whatever happens in the future is okay by me as long as the future happens.
When I was in the deanery one of our assignments was to give kids excuses from final exams. And all too frequently it was because a parent had died or been killed accidentally (well, except for Sunny von Beulow..) . A year later the kids would drift back in, to say goodbye before graduating, or whatever. The dads had almost all ended up in new relationships. Not the moms.
I think the analysis of the way men and women behave is right on. I might eventually form another alliance but I really really truly do not want to find myself in a caregiver role again!
i tend to agree with all the analogy of men/women differences. if you look in the animal world males are intended to procreate and have more than one female. i guess its just natural for the guys to find another mate once they are alone again. i have sowed all the oats i want in my early years and also have no future plans for a longterm relationship - the older we get the more chances caregiving is going to crop up again. but then i have learned too never say never. the future holds its own plans and we can only mouth the words but ultimately let destiny takes it course. divvi
Jim, I think you hit the nail on the head. Many women have close friends in other women, whereas male - male companionship is usually much more superficial. Most men, when asked who they could turn to in case of a personal problem, would name their wife, mother or maybe sister, seldom another man. That's one reason why men who lose their wives feel that they soon need to replace their female companion. I believe (as others have said) in being flexible and would probably enjoy male companionship but my feeling right now is that I will be VERY careful to retain my independence. I know I will be lonely but I think I can cope with that.
When we worked in an Rv park in souther Oregon, it also had 'park models' with people who lived there full time. There was one cute couple there who had a different arrangement - they each had their park model they lived in, were in lots side by side. He usually went to her place because she didn't like his dogs. They were married later in life after good marriages and years of being alone. This arrangement worked out great with them and they were both happy.
Joan - picturing you in 'some hot sex' makes me think of the movies Grumpy Old Men and Grumpier Old Men.
I have no idea what I will feel like when this journey is over. I pray he does not go on for 25+ years like his dad has. I married on the rebound after being jilted by a 'great Italian lover'. Art's experience with sex were the prostitutes overseas while in the Navy and despite trying to change his mentality, it was always fast and to the point. Foreplay was never his strong point. After his affair in the mid 80s, his sexual ability went slowly downhill until about 5 years ago he could not longer perform sexually. He refused to push the doctor to find out the cause of his ED so I took it personally meaning my weight was turning him off. Now there is the possibility that it was AD (this was discussed last year on another thread).
My faith makes it hard to think of sex outside of marriage, but I find myself going back to the sex I had before marriage. He was my first and only lover (other than marriage and my childhood sexual abusers), so sex with another man after 39 years is also hard to think about. I have no girlfriends to fall back on as after his affair I lost all friends and never really made any new ones - it has just been the two of us. It seems the women I did try to make friends with turned out to only be interested in their problems, not sharing. But as others have said, until the time comes, who knows.
I still would like to find out if there is a man out there that I could have a 'soul mate' relationship, but I will not be searching for that. But then again, what man would want to have meaningful sex with someone as fat as I am? Would have to be a special man.
I'm 58, DH is 68, and I've been a "caregiver" for more than 3 years now. Even before I always felt I wouldn't remarry. Felt then and moreso now that it was just too much trouble to establish, much less maintain, a new relationship. When I was in my late 40s and still felt passion and still looked hot I felt completely differently. But now I'm just tired.
I fear being alone but don't want the effort of a relationship just to ensure I'm not "alone." What I would really love is to have a close family and close friends. My biggest regret is that I don't have a close loving relationship with my birth family. I'm grateful my son, his wife and my grandson have such fulfilling lives and would never want to intrude upon them in any way.
DH is still functional enough that I don't feel totally alone now and I do dread that and I'm not ready for it.
I have so many thoughts about this post and I have decided not to post any of them. The answer is "I don't know"... Fear is probably my biggest factor... fear of rejection, fear of not being loved, fear that I will become a caregiver again, fear of disappointing someone, fear of ED, fear of commitment, etc...to many fears, and it is a place that is easier to stay in rather than explore. One of my strong dislikes is that I often hear that women want a man to do things around the house, or to take them out to dinners, and in their next breath they say "as long as no sex is involved". They seem to slam the door before you even knock... I think it is often presumptuous on their part to even assume that a man might want sex with them. I guess it is "friends with no benefits", as long as you provide for their needs.. there seems to be a misunderstanding that in order to have a friend, you must also be one... I have lots of women friends, and many that I would never consider getting intimate with...they are true friends.. I guess that I am not missing much from these types of women....
phranque, we will have plenty of time AFTER to explore ----- and also just to be flexible and see what happens.... let the future come to us. Like you, I'm waiting......
CNN had an interesting article that fits in with this subject - it talks about the differences in the female/male brains. There are a couple of good paragraphs about how older men need the relationship. The link is here:
All of these comments are so interesting. And, in another one of my comments above, I, too, erased everything I had to say on the subject and then re-typed it. Ambivalence, a good word. But, being a caregiver is something I don't want to ever have to do again.