Today my dh and I went to an estate sale. To make a long story short, he took an item from the sale without paying for it. I confronted him about it in the car when I saw him with the item and realized he was trying to sneak it into the car w/o my seeing it. I asked him if he'd paid for it, and at first he said he did, but when I asked him again, he reluctantly said, "I'll go pay for it." He got out of the car and went in and paid (I checked with the estate sale person later that he in fact did pay). I think that this is a good indication, a symptom, that he in fact does have FTD, which I have thought was the case for a long time now. Children lie and steal. That's what he did today. I feel he's regressed in age to the stealing age where kids will steal. I have read on this website that others here have had problems with their dh/dw stealing from stores. He's mad at me now, barely speaking to me. I think he's mad because he got caught.
Am I right, that this incident is an indication of his having FTD? Does this incident finally give me something that I can really feel validates my suspicions?
With FTD, there is a lack of impulse control, and stealing can be part of it. Check this link, and its statement - "Patients with FTD can sometimes get into trouble with the police because of inappropriate behaviour such as stealing." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontotemporal_dementia
Thanks for the suggestion, Joan. I went over there and read it. I SO believe that he has dementia. I think this stealing incident today confirms that in concrete terms. Certainly this is not normal behavior.
The government has been stealing from me for years and years, and I am so glad that you confirm the cause of it... yep the government has dementia for sure...
My husband went through a period where he would take things from stores. This was right after he was diagnosed but still able to drive and be by himself. He was never caught but I do know that he stole my Christmas present (a necklace)that year (2008) he insisted he had used his credit card, which I believed, until no charge showed up for that particular store. It was all small things like little bags of m&ms. The necklace was the only thing of any value that I know of.
Once I caught on, he hasn't been in a store alone and I still will make sure he hasn't placed anything in his pockets. He has FTD.
The past year my husband has been picking things up at Goodwill stores and putting them in his pocket ,he definitely has Azheimers,I figured it was just another phase and try to keep a close watch on him,but I still find little junky things in his drawers.He also has been chased from dumpsters.He takes nothing of any value.SO FAR.
Thank you all so much for your helpful postings. Yes, I am certain he has FTD. I have been for so long. His stealing at the estate sale yesterday confirms that. And, what you all have written. He hasn't been dx. But he is on Seroquel. I got him to agree to not drive anymore recently. So we're getting on down the road with this. I figured something concrete would show up eventually, and this stealing is it. I plan to tell his pcp about it quietly, at his next 3 month appointment for his diabetes.
His memory is also getting worse. Weekly he will make some bizaare statement, about something that he has known about for some time, or that we have discussed for some time, yet it's as if it's all new to him. He's also sleeping more in the mornings. He sleeps late, compared to what he usually does.
My mil used to take any thing not nailed down. I had to really watch her everywhere we went. Now I notice dh thinking everything is his. If you've ever been to a nursing home you know noone has there own glasses or teeth(lol). I let dh collect all the free. Brochures he can carry. Then I recycle them. Funny.
Is stealing a symptom that indicates dh is in the later phase of FTD, or at least much more down the road with it? I feel he's had FTD problems for years. Does this stealing indicate it's escalating and has progressed to where he's more at the end of the FTD?
I posted on this a week or two ago (time doesn't register now as much as it used to), but, just so you will know, my DW has recently taken small things from Walmart. I returned them, but, she doesn't leave my side for one minute when we go into any store. She hasn't been able to go to the store alone for several months now.
Since this is another new 'sympton' at our house, I was assuming that it is a progression of the disease.
Wishing all of you a good day. And me too-DW is cryng for over an hour now and I can't seem to comfort her. I hate it when that happens.
Well, hanging on - a lot of early-stage people seem to squirrel away their own things, or other things around the house - indeed, some "diagnostic" questionnaires you'll see in popular magazines mention this. I think the "stealing" isn't THAT so much as it's simply not knowing boundaries too well any more.
my husband did the shoplifting right after his diagnosis while he was still early stage. He probably moderate stage now. But as it is FTD, he doesn't always understand what is the right thing to do.
It is my experience with FTD that leads me to believe when apathy begins empathy ends. They might still have an inkling that stealing is wrong but they just don't care. Before Johns driving days ended he would go to Dairy Queen or Friendlys, order and eat but not have enough money to pay for it. It must have bothered him on some level because he would tell me about it several days later. FTD destroys the moral boundries between right and wrong. That little thing in our brain that stops us from stealing, overeating, inappropriate behavior, raging, etc. is gone. I don't know how to end this blog because I"m sitting here almost wishing John still had the gumption to do something... anything even if it is wrong. Stages move on and phases pass but it dosen't get any better. cs
From what I've read it may be more of a hoarding thing than out and out stealing. With dementia, something can happen in the brain that is similar to that which happens to people who obsessively hoard.
When I first noticed something terribly wrong with DH was when he backed into a neighbors car, causing obvious damage, I happened to be watching from my window and ask him about it,,, He saw NO need to go over and tell the neighbors, who did not witness any of it, what he had done but rather said to me that the car should NOT been parked there in the first place... Red flags went up...All this from a man who felt honesty and integrity came above all else in a saner life.. since then, candies offered 3/$1 at check out counters appear at home in his pocket, when confronted,, he says they are free and he can have them if he wants. AND it just keeps getting better.... Gods way of keeping me on my toes.... yesterday he took a door off here at home....Said it opened too wide.. Me a 100 lb wonder put the door back on, he proclaiming that I thought I knew it all anyway...He forgets the whole incident in a minute and when ask , he WILL deny all... That part is hard for me
dh said to me yesterday, when I went past his workbench in the garage, "Well, God must be laughing at me for taking that battery w/o paying for it. It doesn't have any power in it at all. I deserved that." I didn't answer him at all to that, and changed the subject.
Thank you all for your so helpful insights on all of this. You know, the funny thing is, after all of this, yesterday at Furr's Cafeteria, I'm 99 percent sure he once again took extra cookies in his shirt pocket to take home. He's been doing that for some time, stealing cookies. With getting in trouble with me over taking that battery, you'd think he would have skipped swiping the cookies, out of conscience.
One thing I've noticed is the more we monitor, the more secretive they are...There, again, childlike... but too old and mentally sick to send to their rooms or spank...and with their reasoning, it's a no win situation unless we stand them at the door and frisk them when leaving... I might do that too..All this HAS to get better...
Hoarding is what I see with my husband. He takes things I have placed in the garbage, goes through the garbage or wastepaper to make sure I haven't thrown anything useful away. He sometimes will ask me if I really meant to throw it away. I say, "If it's in the garbage or wastebasket, it's meant to be thrown away." This does irritate me but I'm trying to just accept it. So far, there has been no stealing, just hoarding. But, it does seem like most of the things he has all over his dresser and any other surface are things that have meant something to him or to others, especially someone who has died. It seems to comfort him.
Bev, my dh has done what you described above for the whole time I've known him, which is 23 years. He would go through my wastebasket and remove things that I had discarded that he didn't approve of my throwing away. Same for the garbage can. He's a terrible hoarder, and always has been since I've known him. Our homes that we've had have looked like junk yards in several of the areas in them. I've decided that I won't move again until he's gone, so there will be no unhappiness in any new home that I buy for myself. I have a hard time dealing with his supervision of my actions. I long for independence, to be able to make a decision w/o considering his wrath.
My DH saves the old envelopes and paper that has one side blank, or even 1/2 side blank, to write on. so his office is filled with used envelopes etcc. he also goes thru the garbage. that and the picking up of reading material.... yad, yada, yada.... if he lived alone, we'd be in colliers mansion, but I sneak out the trash. (lol)
SOME things do get better. Dh used to clip articles and photos and keep them in messy piles on his desk. Now he no longer notices if I throw them out. I have been keeping one small pile for him in case he looks for something, but I think he would not notice if I threw it out.
At my new support group which is at the day care, one of the wives brought in a shopping bag full of stuff that her husband had taken. The moderator just laughed & thanked her for returning them.obviously this happensoften.
Well, today my dh said he wanted to talk about his stealing incident at that estate sale. He said he feels ashamed and guilty. He repeatedly said," I don't know what happened." I told him this can be a part of dementia, and that I've also noticed a decline in memory with him recently. He said, "The battery wasn't even worth anything (it was dead)". "I know," I said. "Next time steal something that's worth something. I can't make any money off of you this way."
Stealing a sign of dementia??? Gee, I think two of my more adventurous off-spring may have been exhibiting signs of it since they were twelve! (Just being silly, like Phranque.....just in a good mood this morning. You all know I take dementia seriously. Just want to laugh at ourselves sometimes. Don't get mad at me) Jen
my DH has VaD/AD combo diagnosis, but i have vivid reflections of him hoarding and crossing the moral barriers during earlier stages. the 'i can do that if i want to' was a constant at anything that was said to him. hoarding is a familiar obsession they seem to do. OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder) seems to be rampant as stages. stealing may be a manifestation of the same but with the lack of moral conciousness. apathy is indeed another aspect. i remember having the flu and barely able to sit up and DH was like many of yours - asking when we were going to the movies, actually demanding we leave right then. completely oblivious to the fact the world didnt revolve around himself. haha. now is does. hang in there -this too shall pass some sooner than others. divvi
Mine just steals from other places set at the table. I don't dare put my daughter's and my salad on the table when i give him his, or he'll appropriate them all. Silverware place settings all end up at his mat. Our ancient cat has privileges the others don't; she's allowed to eat at the far end of the table. The others don't get up there so she has it to herself. So far my husband hasn't availed himself of the cat food! SO Far. He will play with his food all day. Sometimes eats it too!
Briegull, he sounds just like my wife. At the table she is always picking up other people's food, coffee, silver, glasses, etc. Fortunately, the people we eat with seem to understand. She also plays with her food, stirring puddings, applesauce, even rice, eventually eating it. Sometimes I have to "prime the pump" to get her to start eating.
Hanging on, my dh has ftd and in July 2008 before his diagnosis we were in a grocery store that had a display of summer dinnerware and glassware as you entered the store. On our way out he took (stole) one of the plastic pilsner glasses which I didn't realize until we were loading the car. I asked him to return it and he said "No, they were at the exit because they are free." From then on, I watch everything he picks up.
Well, yesterday I, myself, accidentally stole a birthday card at the grocery store -- I found a perfect card for Joyce, and since the shopping cart was wet and I didn't want to ruin the card, I slipped it in my shirt pocket, intending to take it out when I got to the checkout line. And then forgot. Discovered it after I got home, so I guess I'll have some explaining to do the next time I go to the store!
My wife, Kathryn, will bring something up to me and ask me if she can get it. When I say sure, as I always do, she will simply say thank you and walk right out with it if I don't remind her we have to pay for it. Anyhow, the point is that in her case it isn't stealing so much as she just doesn't understand any longer about having to pay for things.
Another thing to consider is that paying in itself may be a very frustrating and embarrassing task for your spouse. Their math skills are one or the first things to go and they may be avoiding having to do something that makes them feel embarrassed.
When ever Kathryn and I go anywhere we may buy something, before going in I tell her to let me know if there is anything she wants, and I always ask her before leaving if she has anything I need to pay for.
My husband can still pay for something and still understands the math involved in it but if the item is small he would tell me it was little and just put it in your pocket. "They" won't notice. Needless to say, he doesn't go into stores without me anymore.
I'm glad to find this discussion. My AD DH brings things home and seems to think it is OK. But he must have an inkling that it is wrong because he hides the items. I actually found steak knives from the restaurant tucked down in his socks! Silverware in the carry out box. Pretty little fingertip towels from the bathroom after a meeting in a very nice home. I watch him more closely now.
problem here is i dont think the law 'allows' for breaking the rules even if sick. even if you could prove the are demented after stealing, its why we as poa or guardians are on the hook for them. it could wind up being a long drawn out costly event to remove an arrest for theft from their record. you hear of teens all the time getting arrested over 10$cosmetics or cd's. a grown adult, intent or not, would cause some problems especially if the police are involved. its a risk like everything else AD. goodness, my greatest concern was always, exposure or indecency with a child if they PEE in public!!! this is a real issue so watch this.
the law is not so insensitive, there are exceptions for the mentally ill. the basic rule, The Mcnaughton rule: a person must know right from wrong in order to be prosecuted.
I remember on a road trip my husband came out of a gas station carrying a gallon of window washer solution. He saw a display and thought they were there for the taking. Most really don't understand right from wrong any longer.
Well DH stole a candy bar while we were shopping in Kohl's - godiva, no less! I asked our aide to take the 1/2 eaten candy to the register and pay for it so DH could enjoy it without being confronted with stealing. It was just 30 seconds he was out of sight lagging behind! This can happen in an instant so now we TRY not to let him be anywhere near candy or food he would like to eat. I know he knew he did something wrong when we confronted him with why he had a candy bar that he didn't pay for.
We've already had 2 incidents of public peeing-no idea that there's something wrong with that. It's a continual challenge.
i am sure we can agree our demented spouses may not know right from wrong, but it still doesnt allow them to commit crimes. prosecuted maybe not -but committed or remandated to a mental hospital even for evaluation/observation may be another thing. at any rate, lets just hope NONE of our spouses ever get into this type of predicament. !!
I see I posted about this 2 years ago. He no longer understands paying for anything or what is right or wrong but he will still try to put a candy bar in his pocket. I try to keep him out of stores that he can easily grab some. I have also paid for expensive candy because the department store had it right next to the register or in the middle of an aisle and he opened it without me noticing. Now even Sears has candy next to the register. He doesn't care what brand it is, as long as it's chocolate.
I usually do all of my shopping now while he is at day care.
one thing I can always count on when shopping at Publix. Dw will wander from her usual "the Rabbi's Wife" position of two steps behind and one to the left of me. Never a cause to panic, I know exactly where to find her, in the bakery section, innocenly eating a cupcake from a box she's opened. Never thought of it as theft, just place the open box in the cart and proceed with shopping. How often do you see Mom's with young children doing much the same.
Let's keep it real, no stor manager or police officer would like to be know for or has any interest in arresting Alzheimer's victims . just make them whole, correct/pay for the item and everyone is happy
if you google dementia patient arrested for shoplifting you will see how often it can happen. i dont think any of us want to be caught up in a scenario such as this with court dates, attys fees, and proving to a court they are without reason. i know i dont. also another one i saw the man had dementia didnt pay for groceries was stopped and then offered to PAY for them and the store chose to prosecute instead of taking the money. a nightmare for everyone. much easier to avoid and keep them under wraps when in a store! it may be a different scenario if you give them a treat out of a bag you have in your cart. yes moms do this alot.
glad I don't reside in Il. i wouldnt spend 5 cents on an attorney. Assuuming medical documentation of - Alzheimer's is real place a call to the local newspaper, DA, Mayor, State DA and see who wanted to make a name for themselve
Fortunately, this is one of the few issues I didn't have to deal with! My opinion is that it's probably easier to keep your LO out of stores if they have a habit of taking things. Whether they would or wouldn't be charged with theft if caught, it could add another burden to an already overworked caregiver's load to have to try to get potential charges dismissed. It's a case of being proactive to avoid the problem from happening.
Unfortunately for some of us keeping our LO's out of the stores is not an option. He pretty much goes where I go. If I know that he can stay with our daughter for a few hours I will take that opportunity to go shopping, but like I said, that isn't always an option. I watch my DH like a hawk when we are at a display with small items because I know that the possibility is there that he will put something in his pocket. A few weeks ago I saw him go to pick something up & then look at me (can't remember what the item was). I just kept looking at him & I could see that guilty look on his face, so he put the item back & we moved on. Isn't it strange with all the emotions that he has lost he KNEW that taking that item was wrong.