Today's (11/14/07) Blog topic discusses the news story about Justice Sandra Day O'Connor's acceptance of her AD husband's "girlfriend", a woman in his Assisted Living Facility, with whom he has formed a relationship. What do you think? Could you accept it if your spouse no longer recognized you and found someone new?
As I pull the knife out of my heart, I hope I will be able to accept it understanding. If it makes him happy, that will make me happy.....I hope. It will be hard, but this whole journey is hard. I cried all the way through the movie "Away from Her", which dealt with a similar subject.
Gene watched it on the news, but I saw no reaction.
My wife M sometimes confuses her 40 year old son with her long dead brother. She is late stage 6. I fear that If she were in a nursing home, I would be quickly forgotten. Accepting disaster is hard. I actually need a stronger word than "hard" to express my feelings, but can't think of one.
I think I would feel as Justice O'Connor does--happy for him. That's my goal where my husband and AD are concerned anyway--that he get to the end of this as content as possible. I also have that goal for myself, but (not being the ill one) need to fit my needs in in such as way as to not mess with his feelings. (Hence, no relationship of that sort for me at any point in time when he would be capable of realizing it.)
The thing is, even though my husband is early stage, the last few years have been so heartbreaking, and I've had that time to come to some sort of terms with losing my partner in the romantic sense...it's really just not there for me any more, as much as I love him and want the best for him, and will continue to do my best for him. I have no desire to cling to or keep him for myself romantically. I really think it would tickle me if he found that joy.
I don't doubt there would be painful pangs, but I'm so used to them they don't count.
I agree with Emily. I think if he no longer knows me I would be happy for him if he found contentment. He has always been a loving passionate man and I hope he remains that way to the end. If that means he finds happiness with some else when he forgets I'm his wife than I hope I am strong enough to accept it and be happy for him. I believe by the time he no longer recognizes me I will have accepted the hurt and hopefully will be able to get beyond it.
You are all better people than I am. I have thought of this often having been in nursing homes for so many years with my mother and mother-in-law. I just don't know how I would stand it....of course, there are so many things that I didn't think I could stand and I have. The very thought of that pain is unbearable.
My DH is in a NH in late Stage 6. He still recognizes my daughter and I, but, there are times he hesitates with that stare in his eyes. So I know the time is approaching when he will no longer recognize me. I will still give him the hugs & kisses, as long as he lets me. You never know the time frame and the changes you will encounter day by day.
My husband has been in the NH for 9 mos. now and I have seen many of the residents form bonds with each other. They will smile at each other, hold hands and just sit together. Of course, they have their own AD Speak, but, they seem to understand each other perfectly. When I see this happening to the other residents, I smile and I am very happy for them. But, on the other hand it has not happened to me yet. What I would want myself to do in this situation,is to accept this as my DH being as happy and content as possible in this AD Journey we all are on. Will it hurt me, oh yes it will, deeply. Right now I am getting tears in my eyes just writing this, but, will I accept this and be happy for him knowing where we are in this journey, Yes I will accept this, just like I have alot of the other situations I have been in. It is part of the journey and I just walk day by day and do the very best I can for myself and my DH. It has been over 6 years now and my shoes are getting a bit worn out now from the AD journey, but, I keep finding the strength to "Keep on Truckin" !!
This did happen to me and I was happy for him, really. However, he did introduce her to everyone as his wife, Betty. So go figure that out. This is what I wrote about it.
THE GIRLFRIEND
One woman set her cap for Bernie as soon as he came in the door. Born in Scotland, called ‘Scottie,' she wouldn’t leave him alone. Well, I could hardly fault her taste in men.
When I sat next to him in the lounge, she’d come by and pat his shoulders in a very proprietary fashion. Hannah, one of the staff, would come over and lead her away, telling her to leave Bernie alone, that I was his wife. But she came back again and again. She talked to me, explaining something, babbling, and it was impossible to understand her. Like Bernie, her words just didn’t compute.
They told me that she banged on the door to his room, wanting to get inside, and when told, 'he’s married,' she’d get angry and say ‘no, he’s mine’. Once she tried to pull him away from my arm. At first, I didn’t believe Bernie wholly reciprocated her feelings. I’d seen him relate to other women there, he kind of spread his attention around.
As time went on though, Hannah told me that the two of them often walked together, holding hands, and sometimes kissed—but he called her ‘Betty’. I didn’t think he was able to tell anyone what her name was—to him, she was ‘Betty’. It was more than a little strange because she didn’t look any more like me than Abbott looked like Costello, but if she was ‘Betty’ to him, then so be it.
Since this had been going on, he hadn’t asked to phone me either, so something was happening. I knew that the time might come when he wouldn’t remember me at all, maybe this was the start of it, and it wouldn’t be easy.
People asked me how I could possibly stand to see him do this, but I was happy for him. I didn’t think that the man who walked with Scottie was really my husband—he was a human shell who looked the same, with the same name, but who would never do such a thing if he weren’t demented.
It might sound false, but I was glad. She gave him individual attention, comfort and affection—things that I couldn’t give him when I wasn’t there and things the staff didn’t have time to give. I knew such behavior was common practice among people like this, and nothing more was going to happen between them, I was sure of that—well, pretty sure.
Between Bernie and me, I was the one set adrift. He was surrounded by people, cared for and looked after. But except for 'Sophie,' I was alone. No one was fussing over me, doing for me. He was drifting away from me, but I couldn’t drift away from him because I had normal awareness. I don’t mean to complain, I was just thinking of the irony.
I have VERY mixed feelings and until I am faced with this scenario I cannot predict how I would react.
There is one side of me that says, "I'm young, I have kids still, I want a normal life, I want a man to guide my children, and to share my life with." I might think DH finding love and affection elsewhere would be liberating for me. In all honesty I do sometimes let my mind wander a bit about how and when I will get on with my life.
On the other hand, through some bad times I remained faithful always. I was raised with the religious conviction that we belong to each other until death do us part. I have in effect sacrificed so much of my own life to help him through difficult times and I might feel hurt that his devotion toward me was gone. My husband is not in a NH, but I think its possible that I would feel his attention toward another woman as a slap in the face ~ and the staffs failure to stop it, or their actively encouraging it could be felt as the ultimate in disrespect toward me.
Amber and Emily....I think you are both very realistic.....! One can't spend their life worrying and fretting over what was....this disease is what it is and moving forward and letting go is a big step in a caregiver's survival. I have said for a long time that I "lost" my husband a long time ago....his spirit and personality are dead...I am just caring for his body until he is ready to let that go.
Last month, my AD spouse friends and I were discussing how we would feel if we had to place our LO in a NH. I said how, when the possibility of an AD diagnosis was first brought up, I was a wreck, could not sleep, and spent every waking moment stressing over how lonely, upset, and heartbroken I would be if I had to place my husband in a NH. What we have all learned since then is that we lose our spouses long before they are placed in a NH. We lose what makes them "them"; we lose the emotional bond; we lose the relationship, sometimes years before they have to be placed.
As Sandi said, the "body" in the NH is not the spirit and personality we knew. If that "body" finds someone who makes him/her happy, then I guess it can be liberating - a sign that we must move on with our lives.
Justice O'Connor is a very wise woman, who, I am sure, has been through the entire process of loss, grief, and acceptance.
Whew, this is a tough one for me. At the point I'm at now, I would feel very betrayed and kind of like "How dare you?! After what you've put me through!!" Maybe by the time we're at the point of considering a NH, I will feel differently.
One of my concerns that is related to this area is that because Robert is so young, he might end up fathering a child unknowingly. That would be awful!! And what a thing for my kids to have to adjust too!
Robert's still really angry with me right now for selling the second car. I didn't sleep at all last night. He's been angry and moody all week. I'm becoming very concerned. I tried to talk with him this morning. It seemed to help, but who knows?
Is there no end to the weirdness of this disease! I suppose it is possible for an AD man to father a child unknowingly! Maybe it's even happened. However, it might be unlikely in an AD facility where the women are past their child-bearing years. Still, what a can of worms!
I have heard of it happening in facilities w/younger patients, altho the 'fathers' were usually staff.
This is a link to a story by Patti Davis (Ronald Reagan daughter). http://www.newsweek.com/id/70463 It refers to Letting Go and Sandra Day O'Connor. I think she had some interesting insights. Barbarakay
Well I found this thread and it intrigued me, the thought of your spouse finding another relationship when placed would you be happy for them or upset? One of the first things Lisa said to me after the diagnosis was "I am going to find you a new wife". I use to get angry at her for that but really she was telling me she wanted me to move on. I would tell her I was going to take care of her for as long as I could and as far as a new wife that was not her job.
I think this is something to read for those having trouble moving forward. I just want Lisa to get to a place where she is happy and contend not where she is afraid upset and anxious. An interesting read. How would you feel? Could you move past it? Could you move on and let them have their happiness whatever it is?
What I heard about Justice O'Connor was that when she quit her job on the Supreme Court so she could go back to Arizona and care for her demented husband, she did not know that he had a serious love interest with this other woman. She lost more than a husband - she lost a job and a life that she loved, all for nothing, and she was not happy about that part of it. As a retired justice, she still has an office in the courthouse, but of course, has no role on the court.
Rona, are you asking if we think WE could move on romantically while our spouse was still living? My answer to that question is, "No." Or are you asking if we would resent it if OUR SPOUSE moved on romantically? My answer to that question would be to sing the chorus of Kenny Rogers' song, "Lucille." ("You picked a fine time to leave me, Lucille . . .")
No sorry myrtle I was just looking right now at Lisa finding a happy place. Looking at if that happy place was her finding another interest other than me, I doubt that very much, but how would I handle it? Her comments about finding me a new wife were upsetting to me but she only wanted the best for me.
I don't necessarily agree with you and think I have upset you by bringing up this thread. Sorry about that. I think you should change the word we to the word me in your above comment. I loved my wife dearly and still do and will always be here for her but that person is not here anymore. She is not going to return, never! What should I do? Is there an appropriate time to put my life on hold? If I can move on should I move on? This is all hypothetical as I am currently finding it hard to get myself motivated to do much of anything but for me it is Important to come to grips with this. There is so much discussion here these days about how hard it is to move on. I understand, I am just wondering where I will fit in? Will I move on right away or will I be stuck trying to figure myself out for years.
I read in a previous post where a man had found another relationship while still caring for his wife the comments on the site were good for you they were not saying you are a bad person. Watched a clip on a news broadcaster who had his wife in care and had formed a new relationship with the total understanding that his wife was still his wife. Him and his new partner would both visit. There is no right or wrong answer here there is no need for guilt none of us I think want to give up on Our spouse or our relationship but all of us have to find a way to move on.
Rona, You did not upset me. This topic has been discussed on other threads and many people are open to establishing a new relationship while their spouse is alive or shortly after they die. (I'm having trouble with singular and plural here now that "they" and "their" are the accepted as singular gender-neutral plural pronouns!) Our member Vickie has just remarried and both marsh and Gourdchipper remarried shortly after their wives died. There is also someone in Vancouver, B.C., whose name I forget right now. I think they are all very happy and I am happy for them.
My emphatic "No" is not based on a judgment of others; it is based on my disinterest in romance. It is the last thing on my mind since my focus is on putting one foot in front of the other. But I think you are a lot younger than I am and have a lot more years ahead of you. And they do say that the most likely people to marry after being widowed are those who had a happy marriage before.
Never say never ... But right now I'm saying for myself never ever again. I'm tired no I'm exhausted mentally and emotionally. I will never put myself in a position where I am the full time caregiver. I'm struggling to do this for the love of my life. My dh is 59, this came out of nowhere. If he found somebody I'm not sure how I would react. I guess I would have to accept it, like every other crappy part of this journey. No judging on my part for what anybody else does. I should also add my spouse is home so I'm sure I have a lot to learn.
"they do say that the most likely people to marry after being widowed are those who had a happy marriage before"
That may be true Myrtle and on that topic I have as much interest in romance as I do in stamp collecting. If I meet someone who makes my toes curl it will be an orthopedic surgeon. There are hundreds of women near my area code I would be privileged to know. I'd be willing to bet that statement is somewhere in the ball park. If something mutual shows itself I have no intention of resisting. The idea of romance or company itself also falls under the category of disinterest for me.
I'm opening to more friend and acquaintance stuff where the sex doesn't enter into that. The core fact is though that I'm starting to have a real relationship with my life where a lot is happening lately and becoming me in my so called life is the sleeping beauty I came to rescue. I don't want a kiss. I want a Porsche.
....
Rona, all these questions are understandable a week later. I hope you're getting a decent night's sleep.
As to the actual topic, I think it's despicable to take the new person when visiting the spouse. There is no circumstance however showered in 'approval' we are, that warrants parading around my new life in front of my spouse when she can't defend herself even if the disease reduced her to a block of wood. Grow up and show some respect.
Wolf we are all different and I disagree. Don't judge. Nobody is parading there is no disrespect there is just love. if he had just abandoned his wife I would feel different but that is not the case. Why do you have a problem with this? At some point we have to let go I am just trying to determine where that point is?
I am not there just exploring the topic you are a lot further along than me but clearly you are not letting go where will I be? Not judging just pushing buttons I think by the reactions.
Rona, I have no issues with someone moving on whether they meet someone new or not. Moving on doesn't have to mean a new relationship and is instead the letting go that you mention. No one does that lightly I'm pretty sure and those that do are following what their own needs to survive are. I don't begrudge anyone their right to survive or their right to choose.
I also read and watched a clip of a news broadcaster who not only brought his new interest in but an entire camera crew to document all the love in the room. Whether his spouse was completely oblivious or not, I will never agree that there is no disrespect. It's easy for me to believe that all intentions were genuine and only love was felt in everyone's heart. There is no circumstance whereby I justify making my spouse watch with her eyes the fact that I have moved on even if she were turned into a statue. My new partner would support that kind of respect, I can guarantee that.
I'm trying to answer your question why I have a problem with that one aspect of this - specifically all visiting together. That broadcaster also raised the awareness of Alzheimer's and every person who gets what AD is, has a better chance of being more understanding of it.
The question you are asking may be centered around when it's alright to let go and I think the answer to that may be that we can let go when we arrive at the point where we're ready to. Those are the words we usually use. What that means is that we let go when we want to - because we have to want to do something to be ready to do it.
When a person knows in their heart that they want to move on and their spouse is taken care of, then I can't think of a valid reason why they should not be allowed to.
There was a time we condemned anyone who got pregnant out of wedlock. There was a time we condemned divorce. We condemned interracial marriage. We ostracized ten percent of all of us who have been with us from the beginning for living the truth. We've spent our history killing those with different beliefs. I have no interest in what the moral majority thinks yesterday, or today, or tomorrow because it is always changing and all certainty is the idea du jour.
The greatest document ever written is The Declaration Of Independence. It is the greatest document ever written because of the first ten amendments known as The Bill Of Rights. It is the turning point in open societies where individual rights were enshrined into law. It is by the exercise of that law that we do not have to kow tow to any dogmatic belief system in a similar tortuous route as we as human beings come to these very questions within ourselves.
You're not wrong Rona, in seeing that I am struggling to let go of all this. It's how my road through this has been so far. But I'm not you and I'm not Jazzy and I'm not Charlotte and only I live the story of me just as only you live the story of you. The majority go through something similar to me except they're generally less noisy about it. What the majority thinks should only count in voting. What you may benefit from understanding more fully, is that you are free to decide. In fact, you are not obligated to decide right now but it's only you that will be making all the decisions - so the truth is that that ball or any ball is already in your court.
When is it alright to do what you decide? When you say it is.
We all struggle in our own way no right no wrong. We are all different for me I think I have always been a bit of a risk taker, I don't mean like BASE jumping, but more willing to take a different path, to step out of my comfort zone. I have one son who has driven me crazy he struggles to find his way through life he has all the skills he needs, he is outgoing and charming but he never gets ahead. He always wanted more out of live and was not happy. I should say that right now he is 35, he has made changes all is going good for him so I hope it continues. But for years and years he struggled he was afraid to do anything different afraid to move out of his comfort zone. I kept telling him if you keep doing what you are doing you will keep getting what you are getting. Some people will never move out of that comfort zone that is ok. I guess my point is to be happy either accept where you are and enjoy life, or if you are not happy and what something different out of life then you need to step out of that comfort zone and take that risk.
For me when this all started for real when we got the diagnosis it was very traumatic. As mentioned before along the way Lisa was saying to me things like "I am ruining your life", "I am going to find you a new wife", "just put me somewhere". Did I get the commas in the right place? These things would upset me but I thought what would be the triggers for me, I knew placement would be down the road somewhere but what would happen to bring it about. In the beginning I thought it would be when I had to start taking care of her personal needs but you know what, those physical things I could handle it was the emotional stress that got to me.
Now in those statements I feel it was out of love that Lisa wanted to make sure I moved on in my life. Now that is a true gift. After reading so many posts of people struggling to move on I wonder will I be able to do it, will I be stuck, will I be able to honour her wishes? Deep down I know at some point I will when that will be who knows everything just new all of a sudden I am truely on my own. I think even when we are caregiving we are alone we have the physical presence of our spouse but we do not have the person we love beside us.
I ask the question of all of us if your spouse were looking down on you what would she like to see. I know for me if the situation were reversed I would love to see Lisa moving on and enjoying life. Easier said than done.
I think we will never really know til the time comes. We may now say never then the right person comes along or we might say yes but find after we are alone we are not ready for another relationship now or maybe never. Both are good choices if it is right for you.
This is quite a subject and I could fill pages, but I will be brief. My husband has been in a facility for three years now, the two years before that were like living in the Twilight zone, and even going back another few years, I can see this disease has been part of our life for much longer than I realized. One "saying" that hits home to me is "once you have seen one Alzheimer's patient, you have seen one Alzheimer's patient". Well, flip that pancake over and once you have seen one Alzheimer's spouse, you have seen one Alzheimer's spouse. Everyone is different, with different family dynamics, religious values, etc., the list is endless. My take on it has been that since my husband was placed he adjusted quite well, a few rough patches, but no real horror stories so far. He thrived in the memory care unit, loved certain activities more than others but was very busy and not alone any longer. At home, he was paranoid and absolutely hated being left alone. I had to work, so that created a huge mess. So, placement has worked out very well if you could say so in the world of contradictions we operate in. Where would placing a 58 year old man be a good choice? I call all my choices "Sophie's Choices"... you will either now what that means or not.
Anyway, my husband is still fairly mobile but mentally he is deteriorating, speech is very garbled, he is confused, asks his caregivers if he has any children (yes, he has two daughters), he recognizes me as someone "familiar" but not as a wife of 20 years. Well, it seems that a few months ago he took to sitting with one of the lady residents, that has been in the same facility with him since he arrived, and they love to go to the activities room and pick out a book and then go sit on the bench in the great-hall - neither one can read at all, but were both avid readers in their previous life. He joins her for lunch, or she joins him, and once in a while they will just sit and hold hands. Does this bother me? Yes, absolutely makes me spitting fire furious, but not for the reason you would think. I am angry that he has this evil disease. But, I am thrilled that he has adjusted enough in his new world to have the very human desire for connection. Not in a sexual way, that would not be anything allowed or advised obviously, but to see him "happy", well, what more could I want for him. So, now when I go to the facility, I always take a little something for the both of them. Over the 4th of July I took them some flags to wave around, how they loved that, or some magazines that have pictures for the most part, just some little fun item.
For myself, I do plan on seeking a new relationship once I get more of my life back on track which could be quite some time but I am open to this possibility. I will never abandon him but I also will live what life I have left, selfish or not, I will try to make my way and find happiness. He would want this for me, I know that beyond any doubt.
Ladylimbo, thank you for your contribution, another thought very well expressed and welcome. I'd say by your attitude you are well on your way to getting your life back. I agree totally with your sentiments.
. I'd like to share a memory from the worst times. She was in the stage of partial incontinence, where I had to dress her, bathe her, etc.. She recognized me as two different Georges. Sometimes I was the Real George and sometimes I was the Other George. In the evenings we would sit on the sofa holding hands, watching the TV, and she would ask me things like "What is your name?" and I would tell her "My name is George". Then she would say "You're not George" and I would tell her "I'm the other George" and that would satisfy her. Then sometimes she would ask "Where's George?", and I would say "They called him and he went down to FDS".(FDS was the place he used to work) Sometimes she would ask "Are you married? Do you have a family? Do you have a car? How did you get into this house?" and I would always give her an appropriate answer and she would be content. With me playing the part of the Other George, we could spend a fairly nice evening together.
When we were playing around in bed at night, she would say things like "I'm not supposed to be sleeping with you". and "What if George finds out about us?" And I would tell her "George won't care, he just wants you to be happy" And sometimes she would tell me about fun things she and George did together. Other times, she would tell the other George that George was mean to her.
At times, she would be very hostile and I would have to use force to bathe her, to get her dressed, to get her to sit down and eat, or to get her to sit on the toilet and at those times, I was the Real George. Through it all, if I was trying to get her to do something, I was the real George, the mean George, but if things were going smoothly, I was always the other George.
For her last eight months, I couldn't care for her at home anymore and I had to place her in a nursing home. and though I visited her for three hours every day and would hold her hand and talk to her, I was still the other George. I think she enjoyed my visits but she also enjoyed being close to other men. Either other clients or the staff that worked there. At the stage she was in, there was not much for her to be happy about, and when as she sat in her wheelchair in the hallway and would reach out to the janitor as he was walking by, and he would stop and talk to her and give her a little hug, I could see happiness in her face and it made me happy also. No matter what the situation, I still loved her and slightest smile on her face meant the world to me.
I.ve learned that for a dementia caregiver and spouse, Happiness is very difficult to find........I wholeheartedly took what I could get.