Hello Everyone I have read this site for the past 4 years, and yet have only written on it a handful of times. Here goes. January 19th of this year my wonderful, 56 year old husband passed away. We brought him home for the final three weeks of his life. Prior to that he was in a NH for about a year and a half. (Alzheimer's) He was mediciad accepted. Now...the dept. of social services states that I owe them $60,000. Apparently, after a loved one dies they are entitled to recover the money that medicaid issued...called estate recovery...believe me...there is no estate! I have an appointment (yet again) with my lawyer on Monday. While googling around yesterday...I found many statements that said as long as there is a surviving spouse(me) and a child under under the age of 21(our son), they can not go after this recovery money. As anybody heard of any of this? Apparently this all started in 1993, when Congress said...yes, go after what you can get back. I would appreciate any information anybody might have. Just when you allow yourself to breathe just a bit...here it comes again. PTSD...? you bet it exists, fear, dread...etc... Love to all you wonderful, loving, brave human beings.
I am so very sorry for the loss of your dear husband. And so wish I had words of wisdom to help. All I can offer is hugs. I will keep you and your son in my prayers.
I'll be anxious to hear the outcome of this. My DH was in a nursing home for 2 1/2 years before passing away. He was on Medicaid all that time. It been over a year since he died. I haven't heard of this. Does it depend on the state where you live? I live in Florida.
Leigh: I want to wish you the best of luck in dealing with these people. My experience is somewhat difference from yours, but, I found them to be heartless.
This is something I was unaware of and something you never hear people talk about. I too will be interested to learn more about this. and I also wish you the best of luck Leigh.
Although the recovery laws may differ by state, I think one of the most important factors is if you live in a community property state. That means whatever $$$ Medicaid spent, they will most likely try and recover it from the surviving spouse. And yes, in most cases your home is subject to the recovery. But as I understand it, the surviving spouse may stay in the home and keep up to $100k (differs by state) and the government will recover the costs when you die or when you sell the house.. Don't handle this alone...you are very wise to have counsel by an attorney and perhaps you may need the help of a elder law attorney whi is familiar with handling these issues.
Carolyn*, Florida is supposed to be one of the better states for protecting assets from Medicaid recovery. I am considering moving us to FL so I can keep some of the money I worked hard to earn and not pay it to Medicaid.
Hello everyone, Thank you all for your comments and wishes. I live in upstate NY. This law is called the Medicaid Estate Recovery Program (MERP) and it is required by the Omnibus Budget Reconcilation Act of 1993 (Federal). It goes on to say all states are federally mandated to implement this program. I know there is much confusion about my retirement account...they think it is funds that I can use and get to...none of which is true at my current age (57). Perhaps that is why...all I want to say to all of you looking into medicaid or currently using it for your LO...be alert...they are a terrible group of people to work with...have no idea how they sleep at night or look at themselves in the mirror. It may sound paranoid...but I feel there is almost an enjoyment on their part watching you squirm. From my understanding in NY the community spouse can keep a house, a car and something like $90,000 in the bank at the time of application. I had no where near $90,000. Well, again thank you for listening...and hopefully I will be OK, and certainly let you all know...Lots of love.
Leigh I am so sorry about the loss of your husband, and , he was so young! I send you and your family warm wishes.
Wow this is a concern for many of us. I did find this...and will continue to look for more. NOTE IT SAYS recovery cannot be made while one spouse is still alive...
What is estate recovery? Federal law requires each state to recover the costs of long-term care services from the estates of Medicaid recipients. In other words, each state has the right to make a claim against an estate of an individual who receives Medicaid benefits. In the case of a married couple, recovery cannot be made before the death of the surviving spouse. So, if Henry passes away before Leilani, the state will place a lien on the property and collect against the property after Leilani dies.
“Does that mean they will take the farm after I die… that I cannot leave it to my children?” she asks. You explain that with the proper estate planning, Leilani may be able to pass the farm to her children. This may be possible through trust planning, joint tenancy or gifting.
Unfortunately, it's not enough to simply avoid probate. Federal law actually allows states to expand the definition of “estate” to include any property an individual had at his or her death, including joint bank accounts, accounts with pay-on-death beneficiaries, life estates in real property, real estate held in joint tenancy and property held in living trusts. So even non-probate assets are at risk.
Medicaid estate recovery rules are complicated and vary significantly state-to-state. You should consult an Elder Law Attorney who practices Medicaid law before drafting any type of estate plan with the intent of qualifying for Medicaid with the hopes of avoiding estate recovery.
Most states have decided that if there is money to recover they will.The reason being taxpapers should not have to pay if the money is there.Hard to say whats fair.
The thing is...if the money was there...we would not have asked for medicaid...nor would we have been accepted for it. As those of you know when you apply for medicaid you show them EVERYTHING and everything for the past 5 years.
From what I have read from one of the legal websites, the largest asset that most of us will own will be our house. So guess what they will go after first? Some states have homestead exemptions and there are some hardship exemptions, but for most, if the surviving spouse is still living in the home - as long as they are living there, they can not take the property. However should the spouse sell the property they can go after the proceeds. Getting legal advice and estate planning is key, especially if you own real estate. There are strategies to avoid this, but it involves getting professional help. I did see at least in Texas, that if the estate is valued less than $10,000 or if the cost of taking and disposing of the property is greater than the amount they will receive, then they will not enforce it. Kind of makes you want to pay as much out of pocket and not involve the Government, but how many of us can really afford to do that?
I hate to see you going through this, but your post has helped not only me but others as well. I was in the dark on this and now I will need to give it some attention. I don't have much either, but I would like to keep what I do have or give it to our children. It is a double edged sword I guess. Thank you.
I almost hate to post this.... My insurance agent was telling me about a client who has cancer and is on Medicaid and had to cash in her whole life, life insurance policy because it had cash value. I could not believe it. Now I don't doubt it.
this topic will be in the forefront for those using medicade -as with the dire straits and strapped for cash our govt is in all states will be trying to regain compensation for disbursing monies thru medicade for long term care. its also my understanding they cant get to the home for recovery until after the spouse dies or sells. then they can assume payment from either. each state has its own rules and for sure contact one who knows the current laws in your area. rules are changing as we type. its all so very complicated but we can be sure if they can recoup costs they are going to try. this is where estate planning and trusts come into play, but the recovery system is probably going to make changes on that one if they can. divvi
It really is unbelievable...and backwards any way you try and make sense out of it. So, anyone thinking about the medicaid process...please contact a lawyer who knows what they are talking about to protect yourself. I did just that at the tune of $6,000...? There is a ton of information on the internet about all of this...and yes, it does differ from state to state...yet, the recovery of the money spent by medicaid is true for all states. One difference is what states deems "estate worthy". NY is not a community property state...other ones are, which again can change things. I just REALLY hope the living spouse clause as well as a child under 21 clause holds all the water! But, as we all know all too well...you can never get your hopes up for anything once the awful diagnosis was made of our LO. The "other shoe" ALWAYS drops. That lack of hope that I seem to feel about most of anything anymore is very sad...AD does change our psyche's.
Thanks for all the continued sharing...any information for us is always beneficial!
Your situation really is tough. I sure hope you get a good resolution.
I'm not sure how everything works up here. Now that I am entering into this I think it should be an eye opener. Like the states the provinces are strapped for cash as well.
Leigh I am so sorry to hear about your dear husband. So very young! I am hoping the letter you received was a basic form letter they send out and that your lawyer is able to straighten it all out. I agree with what you said about qualifying for Medicaid. IF you had any funds for them to recover you wouldn't have been able to qualify in the first place.
When we signed up for Medicaid they told me about the law but also said our state rarely if ever tried to recoup the losses. But I did understand that if they wanted to they could. But only after I died or sold the house. They also said due to our big age difference that it would most likely be long forgotten or forgiven by that time. They also said that because the house has been in my name only and has been since we married was a benefit. When filling out his paperwork, they wrote in their own handwriting that he had no estate.
At the time I remember thinking what choice do I have? I can possibly lose the house after I die, or I can die now trying to take care of him all alone at home. Easy choice.
Blue I am disabled, not on Medicaid but Medicare, and yes I lost my life insurance policy because it had cash value. Nothing like kicking you when you are down.
Hello again, my friends... My first time...I think 3 years ago I wrote on this wonderful place under the name of Brady. I just could not find out my old password to get back on this wonderful site...just my stupidness. Oh well, here I am,,,Nikki do you perhaps remember... how I wrote about my beautiful Johnny...? You wrote some lovely words to me/us. So, here we are all. Amazing human beings...all of us. Silly...maybe not but I bought 2 tickets for the Poweball last week....and knew in my heart if I won...sure I would pay off all of debt...and give to my family and many dear friends....but I swear I also thought of helping out as many of as I could. Most importantly would be our Sweet Dear Joan who is clearly hurting very much these days.
Nikki...it was not a form letter...but a very, very short note sent to by lawyer then forwarded to me, When I spoke about PTSD...every single time I drive down by street...I get a sick feeling in my tummy as to what is waiting for me in my mailbox on our sweet porch. Ugh, ugh...and I know you all probably know what I mean. Love you all... and HERE'S to all of us!
First, I don't know if this is true in every state, but something I learned when my dad went on medicaid was that If your spouse has an life insurance policy, you need to be aware that the owner and the beneficiary may or may not be the same person. On my dad's policy, my mother was named the beneficiary, but my dad was listed as the owner. Since he was the owner, the cash value was his and the policy had to be cashed in to pay for his medical care. However, my mother could have been the owner if the policy had been bought in her name. She could also have been the beneficiary who would get the payout when he died. In that case, the cash value of the policy would have belonged to my mom even while my dad was alive. Since it would have been her property, it would not have had to be cashed in for his care.
Robyn/Brady!! So good to hear from you, though I am so sorry you lost your beloved Johnny. I do remember our talks, and I have thought of you often and wondered how you were doing. I am glad you posted, it is good to hear from old friends ((hugs))
Janet - a while back someone here talked about making us the owner. I did that with my husband's term policy even though he will probably live past the 10 term which is in 2 more years. Then the premium gets way too high to pay.
When my dad died the state had put a lien on his house so when my stepmom sold it, they were first in line. I was really surprised when my FIL died in 2010 the state did not try to take the house that was jointly owned by him and the three kids. It sold this year and there was no lien from the state.
Guess sometimes it is nice to be poor and not own anything. But, then, it has its own set of problems.
Leigh, is your retirement account a 401k, 403b or an IRA? The IRS allows "hardship withdrawals" (unexpected or excessive medical expenses qualify as a hardship) from a 401k or 403b. You can take the money out of the account, you will incur regular income tax but not the 10% early withdrawal penalty and you are not required to pay back the amount to the 401k or 403b. Your employer may not allow for hardship withdrawals in their plan, so make sure you know the specific plan rules.
If your retirement account is an IRA, you can also make an "early withdrawal" before age 59.5 for unexpected or excessive medical expenses without incurring the 10% early withdrawal penalty, but you will incur regular income taxes on the money.
If NY is NOT a community property state, then they shouldn't have access to your retirement account if it's in only your name. If it was in your husband's name with you as beneficiary then they may have rights to recover expenses from that account. Definitely take the advice of your attorney and accountant so you can keep as much as you possibly can!
So sorry your lost your husband at such a young age and you have to endure this situation. ((((HUGS))))
Hi LFL, My husband's entire retirement account was used for his ALF...about $200,000 went to that. I was able to systematically withdrawl from it monthly...no penalties because considered a hardship. John was a college professor so it was under TIAA-CREFF. I also work at the same university so my account (in my name only) is also TIAA-CREFF. They somehow think I am able to get at it...even though I am not 59.5 yet, or separated from service. You know after having gone through so much...I almost feel like it is paying ransome money...to get some peace of mind back. Although, I do plan on fighting this. The house, car, and anything else worth of value is in my name only...we were told to do this while getting the medicaid application ready. So, medicaid for long term care seems like it is really a myth...or just a "fronting" of money that is expected to be paid back. Moral of the story...don't get sick.
I was very fortunate to get a long term care policy on my DH. So what they try to recoup is just any Medicare that is paid to a facility for long term care? Or what Medicare pays out like for doctor bills? Or is it just Medicaid? Our house is in joint tenancy and he does have a retirement account and we have joint checking accounts. I am so confused. You are made to take Medicare. We have insurance through he worked for. He is on LTD. so they made us do social security and Medicare.
Odd that they do not mention this when you are approved. And like others have said, we took Medicaid because we HAD NO OTHER CHOICE, it was either that or abandon our mates if we could not handle it. Ah well I guess it is just an imperfect world.
We do not have any savings, and our home is about par now, no equity. So I guess if this happens down the line, that is where they may get something. So be it.
Coco, don't spend your time worrying about this. One chart I saw indicted Hawaii only re-couped .9% of medicaid monies. One less thing you have to worry about now!
I agree with Vickie. So much we do need to worry about. My state is also very low to recoup. I wonder if it is those that have high life insurance policy that they go after? That would be the only way I see any funds after death that weren't there when a person filed. Lynn has only a very tiny burial policy, he lost his life insurance policy to cover my medical costs. We have nothing left to take.
interesting article on page 34 of this months aarp bulletin magazine about how medicare is a secondary payer and CAN try to recoup costs for certain payouts. it was about a 58yr old who died while in hospital after being transferred from NH. he died from infection from pressure sores, the beneficiaries sued NH for negligence, and won the case. Medicare appealed their suit claiming to be reimbursed for medical costs they covered while in hospital. courts allowed medicare to recoup, then appeals courts reversed and allowed beneficiaires to keep monies left a small amount paid indeed to medicare. its interesting and concerning that they are considered secondary payers AND can recoup after death to an estate IF a primary payer, say here the NH insurance paid the claim. they consider that entitlement to go after reimbursement. if you get the mag read the article on page 34. I am guessing it pertains to those who are not on regular 65yr old based medicare but draw early? not sure. maybe some of you can enlighten us if you can read it.! divvi
This site may interest a few of you that live in the States. It was sent to us as it may become a problem for us.
www.snopes.com/politics/medical/exemptions.asp
The word of concern for us and maybe for you is
Dhimmitude I looked it up and it scares me and concerns me that things like your talking about can happen here as well and yet our government can do this to us without a vote.
My lawyer explained a long time ago why he rarely bothers with personal injury cases. If you win, your health insurance company will expect to be repaid from the winnings for the medical expenses they paid. Doesn't matter if it is Medicare or private insurance. You can easily end up worse off after a successful lawsuit because you might not see the money and you now have legal fees to pay. I will check the bulletin, I don't think mine arrive yet, but I suspect that Medicare would not have acted if there was no lawsuit against the NH for negligence. I do not know how this evolved in the health insurance industry.
I am not sure why you bring up Dhimmitude, since the story refutes claims about Dhimmitude in PPACA.
Also, it seems many were not informed according to law:
Recipient protections in Medicaid estate recovery6
*The State should notify Medicaid recipients about the estate recovery program during their initial application for Medicaid eligibility and annual re-determination process. *The State must notify affected survivors about the initiation of estate recovery and give them an opportunity to claim an exemption based on hardship. *The State must establish procedures and criteria to waive recovery if it would cause undue hardship.
Survey of state’s application of Medicaid liens in estate recovery:
Among 46 states reporting to at least one of the three surveys, 18 did not employ Medicaid liens in any context. Eighteen States used pre-death TEFRA liens. Twenty-seven states used post-death liens on probated assets or other kinds of liens in their estate recovery programs. Seventeen states used both TEFRA and estate recovery liens.
I'm sorry if I offended anyone by bring up Dhimminitude. It is a subject that I thought your government was introducing and I had hoped to get some info. As to what ppaca is I have no idea. Again I apologize. My site is now shut down on Alzheimersspouse.
Jazzy, I was not offended by the concern for what Dhimminitude (sp) as I have read about this and know what it is. We should all be aware of what it is in this crazy world we live in now.
Nor was I offended. I didn't know what it was, and now that I do, I tend to think it's a bunch of untrue propaganda, but I wouldn't want to get political here.
Jazzy - I had to look back to see what you were referring to. I have to admit I did not pick up on that part of the conversation. But, all of us here in the states are worried about the effects - negative and positive - of the Affordable Care Act. There is so much unknowns and what is coming out is scarry.
And, as with the Affordable Care Act, the government can pass things that we have no control over. As it works even with companies - it depends who is in control at that particular time.
We don't have much control of what our Governments does to our health care either. They just cut, cut, cut with no concern for how it affects the sick. I don't know how they can be so blind. With Dementia on the rise how can they to see this? The stats are there!!
Jazzy, I think it's because unless ALZ affects them personally they have no idea what we go through, nor do they care to find out. Not that I wish this on ANYONE, but sometimes I wish that more of our legislators would experience this firsthand & then maybe it would be a priority for them.
Bah humbug anyway....(: I am so grateful for the help I am getting now, his new home, I don't care if they take my first born son..lol..
How I wish I could pay the monthly fee for his care, be able to afford it. I do have to pay a copayment of $420.00 a month, it is difficult but I am managing.
Lloyd was eligible for Medicaid in 2011 after quit work to stay home with him and my benefits were exhausted. The application included a cover letter stating after Lloyd died, the state would expect to recover their money any way they could including selling the house. Yes, I could live in it, but my daughter who gave up everything to be here with us could not inherit it. So I made the decision to not have Medicaid. I worked my a** off for this house and don't intend to lose it that way...at least not yet!