What can be sad at a time like this other than you are in my prayers. Take time for yourself to restore and let what has happened find a resting place. You hear of such tragedies but cannot quite understand what the survivors go through unless you have been through similar circumstance. At least here you have people who can support and be there for you.
Jim: I can usually say, truthfully, that I know how a new widow/widower feels and I can sympathize with them. In your case, I don't have a clue and I am sorry. Please accept my heartfelt sympathy and best wishes at this trying time.
Jim, I had found the KTLA interview just before I logged in here. I thought it was an excellent job. I liked that you said that you were trying to make people aware of Alzheimers and its affect on families.
Jim, dumbfounded sums up how I feel right now...oh my god what a shock to lose the 3 most important in your life at the same time. I always marveled that your parents were assisting you with caregiving duties for your dear wife Rita. I just don't know how I would process such devastating loss at the same time. Perhaps it was an unselfish act of love by your father, but it still has to be a shock. I truly understand the ambivalent feelings-that of relief that your wife's nightmare has ended but at such a high price.
What a terrible tragedy. Like everyone, I cannot comprehend how you must be feeling. You seem to be a very competent, well-spoken and well-written person and I appreciate your desire to educate people on the sad horror of AD -- even in the midst of such unimaginable personal loss.
I hold hope for you in my heart, that you will find your way through the shock and grief to a better life. I'm so sorry.
Jim, I agree with others that you probably are in shock so to speak, but like most of us here if we are honest with ourselves we do or did wish we could just wake up one morning and this caregiving would be over. It is never easy to lose loved ones whether sudden, unexpected are by a slow downhill slide. Regardless it is a sad point in your life to lose 3 at one time and my heart goes out to you. But, at the same time, I do understand the relief you must feel to have this part of your life come to a close. Please keep in touch with us and share your feelings. Your case is so different and we hope you share how you are feeling in the days to come.
You have my sincerest sympathy for such an unimaginable loss. I am so very sorry. My thoughts and prayers are with you. Please take care of yourself in the coming days, and let us know how you are doing.
I can't forget about this easily, but maybe I can look at it this way... ..............Four people have gained freedom from a miserable life caused by a horrible disease.......
I am so sorry. I read your story today, not with disbelief but with sadness. It was much like the feeling I had when watching Dean's slide show. What devastation dementia causes.
Jim, I saw your interviews. You kindness and humanity shows through so clearly. The estate part of this will be solved step by step. During the first few weeks I routinely asked myself: does it have to be done today? and if the answer was no, well, let it go until whenever. On the other hand it is good to keep busy. To, as another poster said,"only think of one thing at a time".
I realize that we all pretty much wish for the end of the suffering to come quickly-but when it comes so quickly that we are left in shock, it is another set of challenges.
Sadness and relief can coexist very easily. As you said in one of your interviews. "Until you live with dementia day by day you can never know what this has been like".
"They were giving an address ... and then I turned on the TV. I said, 'That looks like my parents' house,' " Crabtree said, choking back tears."
"He remembered an incident when he was only 7 years old. His dad wanted to teach him how to fire a pistol. "Mom said 'No. I don't want that in the house.' I never remember another gun in the house," he said."
.....
I hope it's allright to post this here Jim. Some members have trouble navigating websites.
Please feel free to post here. While this experience has happened to me, I see it as an event that belongs to everyone. Something that everyone will have feelings about and will want to comment on as each of us works it into our own paradigm.
Does anyone remember this discussion topic from a few years ago ? ....Arizona Alzheimer's Tragedy......... http://www.azcentral.com/12news/news/articles/2011/09/25/20110925luke-air-force-base-tragedy-alzheimers.html
Jim- I am truly sorry for all your sudden loses, and all I can say is that your father must have loved you to the extreme. I really believe he did it for you, and I hope you can take some comfort in that. The greatest love is the gift of oneself to another, and that, in my eyes, makes your dad a real hero.
How am I feeling? Even before the event, I noted that my level of empathy had declined/evaporated. Probably a defense mechanism, I had turned the volume on my feelings down to zero to cope with all the spouse AD and elder parent things that were happening around me.
Just like everyone, since Dr. A came into my life I have been basically just zombie like wandering around doing all those necessary tasks needed to keep living and just putting one foot in front of the other. I think this might actually be a fairly good place to be right now as it will allow me to accomplish what must be done while I put it all into perspective. And perspective is what I am trying to get.
'Accomplishing things' is my own personal motivation for living (kind of a Puritanical 'salvation through work' thing) I have always had trouble ‘relaxing’ the idea of ‘sitting on a beach all day’ I would perceive as a punishment. My release comes from putting my nose to the grindstone, I take satisfaction in having done something each day. I try not to get bogged down in emotions and I am not doing so now. It might sound strange to some, but it is how I work through things. (Remember I have also been building the house for the 2+ years before this, and if I slump(ed) into an emotional mound of self pity, then nothing would ever have been accomplished and I would feel even worse) I note that my thoughts keep returning to 'what must be done' and I keep making ‘mental task lists’ and I believe that this is why.
Something interesting that I have learned and might be of value to somebody someday is that crime scene cleanup is covered by your homeowner’s insurance policy(!) There is a clause related to toxic substance removal and rehabilitation. The clean up company has already come in, cut out the soiled carpet, cleaned the floors and the concrete patio. The owner was very nice and professional. He is not asking for any money and will be working with mom/dad’s insurance company directly.
(Posting is in multiple parts to meet length requirements)
So how am I feeling? An interesting emotional situation has developed. I am experiencing a level of ‘cognitive dissonance’ that must be resolved. This means that I need to take all aspects of this event, organize them and put them into a world view that balances out. The problem is that unfortunately when you combine all the emotional, philosophical, cultural, theological, spiritual, practical and legal aspects of this event it leaves lots of places that do not 'zero out'.
The Situation: I DO very much believe that this was a compassionate act of mercy killing on the part of my father. He was not violent, he was not evil. I must believe (and I do) that dad was not 'crazy' he had not 'snapped'. He was very much in his right mind (early dementia excepted) and he knew (just as I do know) that he was doing the right thing.
Dad had a wife that was in constant pain. Her physical pain changed her personality and at times she was not pleasant to be with. As if it couldn’t be worse, mom’s Oxycodone was giving her a side effect of anxiety. At times she would be ‘crawling out of her skin’ so even just taking her pain meds could make her feel worse. (this was something I was trying to work out with her therapeutically) Dad’s dementia (and his basic personality) meant that he was always short of empathy. Mom would tell me that “Dad doesn’t understand the pain I am in”and “I wish he would help me more!” (Well, we all know a demented spouse can neither help nor understand)
But then again, in fact he could help and he could understand! He was wonderful with my wife!! It was weird. He understood her dementia. He had mastered AD communication. He knew the cardinal rules. He knew not to argue, he could speak in her gibberish. He had no problem sitting next to her for hours holding her hand while watching TV at my house. Of course that meant that his wife (my mom) was at home alone suffering her physical pains without any assistance from her spouse. . . . . And to think that during this time all I had to do was go to work. . . .
In the thread JimB started about his Kathryn’s release from AD, Jang* commented on guilt she is experiencing from placing Gord into respite just before he died. She has said that “Good memories are starting to pop up now” and she was lamenting that perhaps she should not have made that last placement(?) Perhaps she could have cared just a little longer(?) Well we all know how important respite is and Jang* should not feel one bit of guilt, but this change into pleasant memories is something that I too am noticing and strangely rather than a relief, I find the pleasant memories are causing stress(?)
So how do I feel? I have read and reread my initial posting for this thread. (and I am thankful for having noted my feelings at that critical moment) I said that the day she died my wife was cooperative for her showering and dressing. It isn’t until I read and reread my own comment that I remind myself that she was EVER UNCOOPERATIVE(!) I find myself quickly forgetting all her crying, all her screaming, and all her antics. Nothing but pleasant memories keep coming back to me. For 99.99% of AD spouses this is the best thing that could happen! Who would ever WANT to remember the monster that AD placed into the bodies of our loving spouse? But in my case I have a problem. . . . .
The fact is that my Dad is a “murder”. My father killed both my wife and mother. My father then committed suicide. I have inside me 200 years of American culture. A cultural tradition that says that people who do these things are evil.
I have learned that in California there exists a victim’s assistance fund to give aid to the victims of violent crime. One of the benefits that can be applied for is funeral expenses. I have been told that the fund will pay up to $8000 dollars to cover the cost of funeral expenses. $8000 dollars toward the funerals of MY WIFE AND MY MOTHER(!) The fund will NOT pay for any of my father’s expenses because he is the killer. Society recognizes my father as a criminal. American society does not recognize mercy killings or euthanasia or compassionate acts. Society is telling me that my father is bad there are no excuses.
Trying to avoid Joan’s probation against religious discussions it does need to be said that most all theology tells us that people who kill others or commit suicide are “going to hell”. I also need to resolve in my own heart, whether my father is in heaven or hell . . .
So, my job now is to put it all into perspective. To do this I MUST keep (and cherish) the memories of the debilitations. I MUST remember mom’s pain. I MUST remember Rita’s crying and screaming. I must do this because if I forget them, then I lose the reasons that my father did what he did.
If you forget all the pain (a natural thing to do) then my father becomes evil and his act becomes selfish. However, if I remember my wife and mother as being needy, bottomless pits of endless care, then my father becomes loving and his act becomes a gift.
This is quite a paradox to try to resolve in my heart and mind in a manner that will become the basis for the rest of my life. Jim
Jim, when I've tried to work out a paradox, in my case, forgiveness (for what I perceived as evil acts, or evil people), the best I've been able to come up with is this: "It's not up to me to forgive; that's God's job. Who am I to know all the ins and outs of the situation?" For the time being at least, that works. My mind is finite. I can't know. So be it.
Jim: Please don't make any judgments concerning your feelings at this time...your feelings are probably temporary and will change day to day. This is probably normal for most of us. I don't want to make this post about me, but I do relate in a minor way to what you are saying because of the way my dh left this world. I only feel quilt for a few minutes when someone says to me..."how in the world could you do that?" Briefly, when the hospice dr. and two hospice nurses came to tell me my dh was in the beginning stages of passing and I had choices to make and the choices would be mine alone. If I withheld water and food he would probably pass in days or a week at the most. If I just withheld food, but gave him water or other liquids he might last a couple of weeks or more. Without hesitation and without guilt I immediately withheld both and he did pass within the week.
One could ask and a few have...did I just let my dh die without hesitate? NOOO...I did what my dh wanted and had discussed with me many times which was: Do nothing to keep me alive or prolong my death in anyway. Your father was a hero in my eyes and did what he knew was best for all of you. He probably felt just like my dh did and he didn't want to live like that and he didn't want to leave you with the burden of your mother and your wife for who knows how long. His act was no way selfish it was heroic. If he had been selfish he would just have killed himself so he didn't have to worry about your mother, you and your wife. His unselfish actions made it possible for the only one that could continue LIVING a life without the burden of being a caregiver for who knows how long. Remember that both your mother and your wife had terminal illnesses...they would never get better...Now, they rest at peace in a far better place. And, you too will have peace in time. Your father did give you a wonderful gift and accept this gift he gave you without guilt.
I agree, Judith, that if all he was after was getting away from them, he could have just killed himself. My first reaction was, thank heavens he had the gun! but I don't know where he got it and that worries me (not for you or him, but for a society where he could buy it in his own state of mental health). I know that none of them would have wanted to live longer if they could have chosen it. Your father did indeed give you a gift. Accept it and start your new life in the "after".
Oh, JudithKBV, I so agree with you...hard as that is. I can't tell you the times I tried to think of a way to end it for Lloyd. He was long gone before he ever died. The sparkle had left his eyes. I was left to pray that God would take him quickly and painlessly. He fell down the stairs and died 5 days later. I can only imagine that you are numb with shock. Your dad gave you your freedom. Live your life to the fullest as a tribute to your father. {{{Hugs}}}
briegull: I know what you are talking about regarding the gun. He probably had the gun for years. My dh had two hand guns. He had them for years.....never used one of the guns and put a dog we had down when the dog was hit by a truck and was in so much pain and we knew she would not live. Anyway after he was dx I knew I had to hide those guns. I went to where he kept them and they were gone. I asked him about where he put them...his answer was "Your friend Bill stole them". Well...I knew this was not true. For years he would comment about Bill taking his guns. In fact, I got sick of hearing it. I spent days looking for those guns on numerous occasions. Never found them. After he died I found the two guns in the bottom of his golf bag and they were all wrapped and taped to extreme. When I told our friend Bill that I finally found the guns he was so thrilled because he didn't want me thinking he would steal something from us. Of course, I never thought he did steal the guns I knew Jim hid them some place and couldn't remembere where he hid them... sure enough he did.
I feel that whatever "God" you believe in, is a forgiving "God", and knows we are only human and that we all have limitations of what we can handle emotionally for the ones we love. We are all sinners, whether we have killed someone or not. As was said above, we all will be judged by a forgiving "God". Actions involving emotional stress caused by our loved ones suffering, in my opinion, will be forgiven. I think your forgiveness for your father will happen, he loved you all too much to watch any one of you suffer anymore. He wanted you to have peace in your life and I hope that peace comes to you soon. Prayers and peace is wished for you.
My deepest condolences to you. As several others have said, I believe that God or a Higher Power is loving and forgiving and knows what it is truly in our hearts. Take care of yourself and may you find peace in the days ahead.
Jim, it is good to hear from you. Society is changing, at least the people, perhaps not the laws. When there is a valid reason most can relate to, such as terminal illness, people are more understanding and forgiving. Of course there will always be the holy rollers who cannot "see", but really who cares what they might think about your personal situation?
As some of you remember, my Dad took his life. We live in a small town and word of course spreads quickly. We didn't get the standard sympathy comments nor did I get even one card. In fact, most people said nothing at all. People I have known all my life would not look me in the eye, they just hurried past me. It hurt me deeply at the time. Over time, person after person said they just couldn't approach me, the grief was etched sharply on my face and they just didn't know what to say to me. There was no "valid" reason to draw comfort and peace from.
Our local pastor met with all my family who wanted to hear what he had to say. He offered compassion and assurance. Our previous pastor whom I have a strong history with, personally called me from his new post in California. I will never forget what he said...."If you do not know in the depths of your heart that God was standing right there with your father, then you have a weaker faith than I believed. Of course he is in Heaven, he is bathed in His comfort and mercy at this very moment"
I had people callously tell me he was going to hell. These are the cold hearted *insert swear words* that think they are so holy but have zero compassion. I truly did not care what they said or how they felt. What mattered is what I felt in my heart, and what I know to be true.
With all you must face, do not worry yourself with what society may be thinking. Who cares! Concentrate on what you feel and what you know as the truth for you. That is all that truly matters.
Since my Dad's suicide I joined a coalition. When tragedy like suicide strikes a family it helps to have someone who can relate. We offer information, numbers to call for help, a heart full of compassion and a willing soul to let them pour their guts out to. Through these works I can honestly say that those who do have a "valid" reason, do reach a place of peace in their hearts. I hope this is the case for you Jim.
I hope in time the happier memories with your dear Rita will not cause you stress but bring more peace to your heart. You remain in my thoughts and prayers ((Jim))
"His act was no way selfish it was heroic. If he had been selfish he would just have killed himself so he didn't have to worry about your mother, you and your wife."
PERFECT! Thank you Judith!!! This is the concept that balances the equations! The point that unequivocally proves that it was the correct thing to do. I feel whole again. Thank You! :-)
As for professional help? Naw, I could never get better insight or direction into the stresses of AD caregiving than I get right here. Jim
So glad I checked this place one more time tonight. I am so glad I could help you and hope that you can refer to the actions of your father as a heroic act...because that is what it was. Take care and keep us posted.
It's good to hear from you! Yes, I see your Dad as a hero. I wouldn't be concern with what todays society thinks....it's not important.
This is such a tragic event, but Jim you have shown courage and strenght though it. I truly believe that with your education, skills, and leadership you will be used in a mighty way to pave a place in the educational process to assist others who suffered though similar circumstances.
Thank you Jim for sharing. We all love and care about you!
Your father was a murderer [edit - as you said above]. And so are the soldiers who landed on Juno or Omaha beach in WW2. So is every soldier on every side of every conflict where every conflict ends and they all become friends again but those who were killed are dead. And all armies everywhere killed innocent people caught in the conflicts. Even God didn't mean "Thou shalt not kill", he meant "Thou shalt not kill unless I tell you who to kill" which he did often enough.
Societies don't mean that either. State by state decides whether to kill in retaliation. An individual is pushing that button, throwing that switch. Is he a murderer? Who says so??
All people kill or have someone kill for them otherwise they starve. God did not say thou shalt not kill unless...and yet God understood it is always circumstancial as his own actions in other circumstances cleary demonstrates.
Terrorism. We are going to kill that young man who bombed those people in Boston. We're going to kill him as an example. After due process. And I agree.
I am not deconstructing your father's actions. I'm deconstructing everyone's. And I do not support your father's actions even though I understand them (superficially - as you said you have to live it to know).
I question that we would be kind or merciful if we put that Boston bomber into prison the rest of his life. I call that equally cruel. I'm not interested in what he did. Our only responsibility is in what we do.
If Dianne suffers for weeks in real pain we cannot prevent, I will go and get her and drive us into a cement bridge embankement at 120 MPH with the seatbelts off. Then I will be a murderer. And that without the motive of your father. Or is it the same?
It would be better if I veered head on into an oncoming transport truck. His speed added to mine would be more effective. And he would almost certainly survive; but, then I would have involved another human being in my actions.
Could the driver of that truck afterwards forgive me when he understood that I committed murder to end my wife's horrible suffering? More than forgive me, could I hope that he wasn't himself destroyed by my actions when he understood my motivation?
These were the conflicts I believe in your father's mind that morning which is why he argued so loudly and I suspect your father's real intent may have been to end his wife's suffering which he lived with 24/7 and which was extremely painful for her and deteriorating.
My suspicion is that having come to such a state, he may only then have grappled with including Rita, where he himself saw her deteriorated condition most every day.
And what do we all say? Let them go quickly. Let them not suffer. And what does everybody on this thread say? That she did not suffer.
I believe Jim you may be wrong if you see this all as something your father did for you. I believe he may have done it for his wife. I also believe his greatest conflict by far was in taking that step of including Rita in what his decision about them already was.
Your understanding of the man is the greatest insight. What I know from so far away is that he not only stood by his wife, he also took in his daughter in law almost every day and watched her too. This is not a man who shirked from his concience and his duty for a long time it sounds like. To come to this horrific decision about his wife is something I've already explained I understand. I stood by a friend who on full morphine screamed constantly in his last TWO DAYS dying from cancer. "Kill me!" he screamed begging while we held on to his shattered wife where no one did anything - because no one was willing to be a murderer to end his intense suffering.
Concluding and judging can be very complicated. I urge you in the weeks to come to consider that it was not a gift to you. It was an end to suffering period and full stop. And your father knew he would lift an enormous burden from you I have no doubt. Your father took three lives and I believe that if he had left a note, it may be that the only two he regrets are your wife's and to a lesser extent, his own.
I ask your pardon in being so bold. Someone must speak to you beyond the support I hope you see and feel here. We care about you as one of us. And it may be that of all the serious events that happen on Joan's board - this is one the greater crises.
Also feel no need to respond or just say you don't wish to discuss a certain aspect. But know that I am willing to do what your father did in the 'wrong' circumstances. My main point though isn't just to show how circumstantial all morality is. I believe it may matter to see this tragedy eventually in it's own light and not primarily as cause and effect on you. That your heavy burdens have been lifted may be an outcome - not the primary motivation.
Jim, I have no words. What a blow you have been dealt. My thoughts and prayers are with you. As Wolf said, please come here to vent. I am so, so sorry.
Nikki, I am so shocked that people would talk to you like that after losing your father. Years ago, I read some poems, written by a minister who told of his various attempts at suicide. It was published after his last and successful attempt. His anguish in the poems was palpable. It broke my heart. I felt sure that he had gone to God.
Jim, I hope that you are well. My prayers are with you. Please be strong, but not so strong to not reach out for help. Please keep us informed on how you are doing. Take care ((hugs))
The thought that dad did it for his wife is interesting and something I had not considered, (FYI there was no note) but the thing that brings the most comfort to me is that he did not do it for himself . . . Either way, it redeems his memory for me. Jim
Jim, For anyone to label your father a murderer, they would have to claim to know what was in his heart – which is impossible for them, for you, for any of the rest of us. I pray that God will give you peace (see Romans 8:38-39).
Jim, I have always believed God knows our hearts when actions may not go along with what we believe scripture says. God knew your dad's heart, even it you are not sure what was going on in his mind and heart. You believed your dad was in the early stages of AD - if he knew that too, he knew his future. Legally, they can call him a murderer, but in your heart you know your dad, loved him and can forgive him and remember the love. Hold strong to your faith that He is in charge and loved your dad, mom and Rita. Try not to over analyse it.
I concur with Mary and Charlotte. Only God knows a man's heart. Because your Dad had MCI don't ever hold him accountable for an act which he was not fully responsible. I don't want to get into theology (per restrictions on membership), however, HE judges on what we know and don't know. Hold on to your beliefs and hold strong to your faith.
I have only a brief glimpse of what you have gone though as my loving Dad died of unnatural causes. I was a only in my 20's when he departed, but there has always been a mystery regarding his death. Although Daddy's death was determined accidental it was staged to look like a suicide. You know where I am going with this. I have struggled and still struggle however, with time it does get easier.
Jim, I've shared your story with my friends just to let those who have no clue the reality of alz or dementia. You are in the thoughts and prayers of many and will continue to be in the months ahead. Grief is hard.