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    • CommentAuthormary22033
    • CommentTimeDec 18th 2012
     
    Belgium looks at euthanasia for minors, Alzheimer's sufferers

    http://www.france24.com/en/20121218-belgium-looks-euthanasia-minors-alzheimers-sufferers

    "Belgium is considering a significant change to its decade-old euthanasia law that would allow minors and Alzheimer's sufferers to seek permission to die."

    How could a Alzheimer's sufferer seek permission to die? How could they be deemed to have that capacity? Wouldn't it be the family/caregiver making the decision. This is horrifying to me.
  1.  
    Gasp!! And to think this could come to our country if we become more like Europe as some thinking goes in some states.
  2.  
    Wait and see how it plays out. I doubt you'll see anything close to your worst imaginings.
  3.  
    Surely a person who is mentaly incapacitated would mot
    be allowed to make this decesion. I think it would be OK for
    someone who is in constant pain with no chance of recovery,
    as long as they could prove they were mentally competent.
  4.  
    Considering the alternatives, death is sometines
    not all that bad........
  5.  
    I'm sorry, but I keep thinking of more to say on
    this subject.....
    When my brother-in-law, John, was dying from
    cancer, all his family were gathered around him in
    his hospital bed saying their last goodbye. He was
    expected to die that night.
    The next morning, his son Ted came to check on
    him and found him still alive. Ted said that his dad
    told him "I woke up this morning and said to myself...
    Oh shit, I'm still alive"
    He did die that day, so he got his wish..........
    •  
      CommentAuthorm-mman*
    • CommentTimeDec 19th 2012
     
    Euthansia? Here is how it could possibly play out in the future:

    The costs of healthcare MUST be controlled. There is not enough healthcare for everyone to get everything.

    Fact: "Our people" cost a lot of money. They are debilitated but they still live a long time.
    Fact: Medicare stats show that the majority of healthcare dollars are spent in the last 1 year of life (if not last months of life)

    If somebody could reduce healthcare costs by going after patients like OUR loved ones (they are terminal) that would represent 'low hanging fruit' for the bean counters.

    Euthanasia - active? (an injection) or passive? (lack of treatment)

    Think about the times a person has received an expensive new hip and then lasted only a few months. The bean counters will all say that that is money wasted.

    But if a person has a broken hip . . . ? Well you cant just let them lie there can you?
    And if that person with a broken hip has other problems; heart, lung, dementia(?) WELL . . . . ?????

    It is not a very big step for "society" to say that the person with a hip fracture AND other problems is more deserving of 'euthanasia' than a hip surgery. . . . .
    Right or wrong, I sense this is how things might happen in the future.
    And yes it is scary.
  6.  
    Don't we have some history to show how it progresses? Consider Hitler's Germany.
  7.  
    I'll tell you what happened to my sister in law last year....She had quit smoking 11 years prior to a DX of Lung Cancer. How did they discover she had LC? She thought she had a cold she could not shake. One doc said pneumonia...thought they should do a bronchial wash after two weeks of antibiotics didn't seem to do much..a different radiologist decided to pull the fluid from the lung and test that and cells were found in the fluid..So for 17 months my Sister in law ( age 65-66) fought this disease with courage and without complaint..Then in last June 2011 she developed a pain in her upper abdomen..." the docs thought it was advancing cancer" and did nothing more as she was on chemo blab blab blab....but on 3 July she had such severe pain she was taken by ambulance to the hospital ER..the chart said "66 year old woman with stage 4 Lung Cancer" they gave she a shot for pain ( a narcotic) which did NOTHING . The pain grew worse by the hour...and my brother was frantic to get a doctor to look at her..more than just flipping the chart and moving along..Only when her O2 was at 48 and her BP was going through the roof did some doc take a look and order a CT and guess what? It was a perforated ulcer in the stomach caused by one of the meds she had to take..She had emergency surgery at 0300 hours knowing she was going in for the repair...she came out of surgery was on a ventilator but could respond to doctors...by the 10th she was dead!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Neglect by the ER staff was outrageous and yes there is a law suit against the ER..they messed with the wrong spouse who happens to be a lawyer..surgical ward and staff, not problem with them. The reason for his suit...no patient, even stage 4 anything should be left in that kind of pain..but looks like this is what we have to look forward to in our care now.
  8.  
    My sister has a chiropractor who has a single practice, minimal office staff, private pay only with lower prices and does not file insurance or medicare. He told her at her last visit that he would not be able to treat her any longer. Because he does not file for medicare, he is not now allowed to treat anyone medicare-eligible.
    • CommentAuthorJanet
    • CommentTimeDec 19th 2012 edited
     
    For years, my husband has told me he did not want to live with life support or even if he were at all incapacitated. He wanted me to promise that if he was ever in truly bad shape physically or mentally, that I would help him end his life. I told him I could promise not to take extraordinary means to keep him alive, but that I could not actively cause him to die. He has always seen Dr. Kevorkian as a true hero. He, along with two other people from our church, started a chapter of Compassion and Choices in our town about 8 years ago. C & C is a national group that promotes "death with dignity" - - as you wish it. Ours is the only chapter in Illinois. What are your thoughts about a case like this? i clearly know what he would want if he were in end-stage dementia.

    Janet
  9.  
    Ok, but I'm with George on this'un.
    • CommentAuthormothert
    • CommentTimeDec 19th 2012
     
    Both hubby and I agree that we do not want to be kept alive just for the sake of being alive. Quality of life has some meaning to us. If there is a good chance of recovering to a full and meaningful (to us, that is) life, then life support for a limited period of time is an option. But not if we are to lie in a bed and maybe get some OT and PT with no hope of EVER being who we used to be, forget it, pull the plug. Keep me and him comfortable but do not go to any extraordinary means to keep us alive. Just sayn...
  10.  
    Lori*,
    I go to a concierge doctor...I pay a membership fee annually. She takes NO insurance, issues a "super bill" which I can send to my secondary ins. I am as of this year on medicare...I don't understand how your sisters chiro is unable to treat her now if he takes no ins at all? Something doesn't seem right. Can you shed more light on this?
  11.  
    As long as we decide we don't want to live, that is fine. In other counties they have boards that make that decision. That would trouble me.
    • CommentAuthorxox
    • CommentTimeDec 20th 2012
     
    I don't know about Belgium but in the Netherlands there are many protections concerning its euthanasia laws to ensure that euthanasia does not happen without the request of the person. Reading this article " "the law to be extended to minors if they are capable of discernment or affected by an incurable illness or suffering that we cannot alleviate." Nothing hear to indicate that the unhealthy are being put into death camps.
    • CommentAuthorJan K
    • CommentTimeDec 20th 2012
     
    In the last few years, I have noticed a reluctance by doctors to treat my husband for things that I think can and should be treated. One doctor wanted to know why I wanted to find out if DH's tumor had become cancerous, if we didn't want to treat it with major surgery and other drastic treatments. Well, of course because of possible serious pain and other symptoms that would absolutely need to be treated. Cancer is not like a hangnail—it can leave you screaming in pain. More and more I run into indifference from medical professionals, like since he's dying anyway, what difference does it make what else is going on.

    Also, the extreme lack of care that DH was given at the last respite stay seems like they're already on the slippery slope of letting people go. I don't expect last minute miracles of medicine for this disease, but I would like to know that he would be given decent comfort care and necessary medications without me having to turn into an angry mama bear trying to care for her cub.

    I see "assistance" coming our way. I've even heard people say that younger people have their lives before them, while the older people have lived their lives. Why waste medical dollars on them when they're not long for this world, anyway? It scares me to death.
  12.  
    Lori*, regarding your sister's chiropractor, it is my understanding (and I am a doctor) that if a provider does not bill medicare, he/she cannot bill medicare for any patient they treat. But they are not prevented from treating the patient for free or self-pay. Have the chiropractor look into this. Since he does not bill medicare for any patient, it should not be a problem.
  13.  
    In the European countries which allow euthanasia, it is very regulated. The process is taped, to insure that procedures are followed, the patient is making the choice him/herself, and is also administering the drugs to him/herself. As these things stand, a person much impaired by Alzheimer's would be ineligible anyway.
    •  
      CommentAuthorJudithKB*
    • CommentTimeDec 20th 2012
     
    Jan K....I don't think you need to worry about your dh not being treated for pain if he did have cancer. You could always change doctors and/or see if your dh would qualify for Hospice who would provide you with all the medications needed to fight pain from cancer...in fact that is their major function. My dh when he was close to death was given morphine because he was so restless so he could at least remain calm...he never had any pain.

    It is a very personal thing if you would want to find out if your dh has cancer. Personally, I didn't want to know
    because if surgery was required I wouldn't have felt comfortable having my dh have surgery which would have made his AD worse. Kind of a catch 22 and like you, my major concern was the lack of pain. Some of the treatment for cancer is worse then the pain they may or may not have. I didn't want my dh to go through that when I knew his life was very limited to begin with. And, we had discussed this years ago when my dh was capable of understanding some issues. This is a very personal thing and only you get to decide and know what care you want for your dh...all of this is so difficult.
    • CommentAuthorxox
    • CommentTimeDec 21st 2012
     
    My mother died of cancer before the days of hospice, or at least we didn't know about it. I think much of her pain in the last month could have been avoided if she was on hospice rather than attempting a cure when it became hopeless. The chemotherapy was devastating to her body and is what destroyed her lungs.

    Dying at home takes planning. You need to decide what result you want from treatment. Eliminating pain is important, an operation might not be the best way to meet that goal. I don't know, but emphasize the your concern about your husbands pain and that it isn't ignored.

    Read about how doctors die, different from you and me. Doctors tend to refuse various treatments for themselves and even tattoo DNR orders on their bodies.
    •  
      CommentAuthorJudithKB*
    • CommentTimeDec 21st 2012
     
    paulc...You are so right about doctors tend to refuse treatment sometimes. My son-in-laws father was an eye surgeon..he had throat cancer and he refused treatment for his cancer. The other doctors that worked with him and in the same hospital drove his wife crazy asking her to make him get treatment, in fact they felt so strong about it, they attempted to get the hospital to sue him and his wife for refusing treatment. But, he died before that ever happened. I really don't think they could do that, but in Ca. anything is possible.

    I am so glad my dh and I had a conversation regarding treatment if and when it might be necessary for either one of us and what the well one should do. It made it so much easier for me when the end was obvious to me to do what I needed to do to make his passing as gentle and as easy as possible for him. I have never had one minute of doubt that I did what he would have wanted.
    • CommentAuthorxox
    • CommentTimeDec 22nd 2012
     
    And remember, it takes planning to die at home. Otherwise you are likely to die in the ER or ICU.
    •  
      CommentAuthorJudithKB*
    • CommentTimeDec 22nd 2012
     
    Yes...paulc...it does take planning to die at home. That is what I wanted for my dh and Hospice was a great help in making that happen. The Hospice doctor came about a week before he passed and gave me options for his care and told me he had maybe a few weeks more to live. He suggested I take him off all medications except for ativan and morphine to keep him comfortable and calm. Also, he said I could take him off food and water. I did that too because he had a difficult time swallowing and I didn't want him to choke when I was with him alone. He had a very peaceful passing and I knew he was going to a better place and there was no chance that he was going to last very long. I also had help caring for him from the VA which I couldn't have done it without them either. I do believe that one also has to do what they think is best for themselves and be comfortable with the decision they make.