Well, Jane was right. The only way to save my house (now a rental) is to divorce. This was the elder law attorney. I asked him if he had heard a story as bad as mine, and he sad he had heard much worse, some people come to him when they have lost everything. He recommended a divorce attorney NOW & said even if I didn't leave right now (you have to be separated for 6 months) I needed advice.
I left in kind of a stupor. I was asking myself if I were exagerating things, telling myself things weren't as bad as they seemed. I really started doubting myself. This is serious, can I be sure?
Sunshyne, I came home & googled myself to death, based on the info you put forth this morning. I had thought all along we were out of harm's way when it came to the small cell cancer, since they declared him "cured." I found out more than I wanted to know. Yes, a brain tumor can create all the syptoms of Alzheimer's. The difference is a quick merciful death, rather than the drawn out stages of Alzheimer's. So I don't know what I'm dealing with now. And yes, he could have one. And yes you're right, either way it could be expensive. The health insurance would cover the tumor stuff, but he changed to a $5,000 deductible with blue cross Anthem to save a lousy $100 per month. That will be hard for him to lay his hands on, since he's after me to pay the $3,800 property taxes. Money has never been an issue with us until last year.
I thought back to when I insisted he have a brain scan. That was say, three years ago. They found nothing. So logically, I tried to deduce that he was already having problems, so can I conclude that it is not a brain tumor, but rather the aging of the brain which subsequently developed AD?
I have to find a job, which seems to be difficult in this economy. I never expected to have to support myself entirely. Seems most of you have your retirement squared away, while mine went down the drain with the stock trading.
I'm a bit overwhelmed now. I never could have predicted all this a year ago. I think I've gone back into a denial state. He's not that bad, etc.
Upon the sale of the house, my husband has agreed in writing to give me $12,000. This is for the money I sank into the house, even though I'm not on the title (it was my HOME) landscaping etc. I just can't leave until I have a job & that $12,000. I can't believe I HAVE to leave.
Sorry to ramble, but it was a tough day.
Thanks to you all for insisting I see an attorney. Now to the next dreaded appointment. I can't lose my house. I can't lose my mind.
Val, Glad you made it thru the appointment, regardless of the news. You are a lot stronger than you give yourself credit for. And make sure you reward yourself with something nice, even if it as a nice long bath.
Val, that is shocking news. The sooner you see the divorce lawyer, the sooner you will have all important information. For what it is worth, information I was in a somewhat similar position a few years ago and began to question myself re. did I really want a divorce. I went instead for a marriage agreement whose bottom line was that I could have the matrimonial home in case of separation, but not in the case of a divorce; then, if I remember correctly,in case of a divorce, the matrimonial home would be sold and the money split. A lot depends on how long you've been together. And, also, our Canadian laws are different that yours. Mary
Val, take a deep breath, and try to do nice things, as PatB says. The worst really is NOT KNOWING. You will have a better idea (you will "know") when you've seen the divorce attorney. You just need to hang on until then. That's coming up pretty soon, isn't it?
Some of us are going to be okay money-wise, others aren't. I'm losing my company, because my husband was handling the financial/legal aspects and of course that all got screwed up ... which means I have no job, and my husband has no assets at all. I have some assets, but what I don't know right now is how much of the debt associated with the company will be my own personal liability. (Ouch.....) I hope I'll have enough to tide me over until I can find another job, but right now, I don't know. Which is why you and I run into each other here in the dead of night! lol
And I'm betting that a bunch of other people here are in similar situations. The high cost of medicine these days can really do a number on us, even without ADLOs screwing up the finances.
Each nastygram from a creditor is a shock to the system, even though I expect them, and causes another sleepless night. But I know that once the process gets far enough along, and I know what I do and don't owe, that I'll be able to make a plan. And then things will be better, no matter what the final outcome may be.
PatB is right, you're a lot stronger than you think. When you've got a divorce attorney you trust, and you know where you stand and what alternatives the attorney can suggest, and you can start developing a plan, you'll do OK.
In the meantime, the very best advice is to BREATHE.
Val: I have never been in this financial/marital spot--hard times, yes, but never this. It does seem like a living nightmare, how do we end up like this? Other than getting w/an atty, hopefully a good one, I want to say that your DH is as bad as you think he is, probably worse than you realize. Stop doubting yourself. This is a place I have been and we don't want to be there, so we question what we see and know. Your DH has been unable to function logically for quite a while if I remember your prior posts, so you are doing the right thing to take charge for yourself and for him. The atty is right, too many wait until there is nothing left. Having said all this, I admire you for doing what you are doing now, in no way do I think it is easy.
Val, that was dreadful news but its best you know up front what you are up against. get that next appt over with and you will have insight on what you need to get moving on. nasty that you have to be separated 6mos to divorce in your state. if its a choice maybe you could find work in another close state that doesnt require that waiting period. but they will require some time of residency period though before you could file. you want to move soon to get your ducks in a row for the unforgiving future soon to come. and whether he have a tumor or dementia from the radiation etc remember its non reversible and will most likely he will further decline who knows how fast. its a sad state of affairs when we have no options but divorcing a mental spouse..i hope you find some answers to your benefit soon. divvi
Val, I am so sorry that you had all that bad news and are in shock and denial. What a huge mouthful to swallow! Take an evening to mourn, yell, scream, whatever. Tomorrow is another day and time to start taking the necessary steps. If I remember your posts correctly, you have already taken a big step by calling a divorce attorney. Keep it straight in your head what you want as an end result for you and go for it.
It may help your understanding on why he is the way he is to have the medical answers but does the answer it make a difference in what your choices will be? If he could be cured tomorrow, would you stay with him?
My mantra (prayer) in dealing with all the ups and downs of this disease has been "please let things work out for what is right and best for him and me." I keep finding that as long as I take the first steps that they often do really work out. So may things work out for you for what is right and best for you and him.
I am so grateful for all of you, I have tears. Any further input would be appreciated. Sunshyne, was good to hear (not really, but comforting I'm not alone) that we are sort of in the same boat.
I need to know I haven't imagined this. I was struck by the thread of the woman who's husband said there was no soap. Took me back to the bathroom. Several months ago, I noticed in the morning that the clock in the bathroom was flashing, time was wrong. I told my husband that the electricity must have gone out. He said no, he unplugged to check the outlet, because I said something was wrong with the outlet. Total fabrication, the discussion never existed. I felt like someone had knocked me against a wall.
I hope someone is trolling the other ALZ. regular site to bring others here like myself. I should make an effort to do it myself, but just don't have the energy right now. But I will make a commitment to doing that, because someone here saved me. Would the angel who got Gaia off the other site please stand up?
Haven't made an appointment yet with the divorce attorney. Needed today to just let this sink in.
Everyone here is an angel to everyone else, Val. Which person was it who recently said here that the people on "the other site" are on a different planet? It's true. They are.
Or maybe WE are the ones on a different planet. Everyone here is really special. Including, of course, Val.
And we all know that the Main Angel, the Most Special of the Special, is Joan. None of us could help the others if it weren't for her.
There are people (ncluding Joan) "trolling" over there -- that's how I ended up here, probably it's how most of us got here. What's important is that there is a "here" to come to.
I know what you mean about it being comforting to hear others are in the same boat. It really is soothing to know that others have it just as bad as, if not worse than, we do. In part, because we can say yeah, I've got it bad, but look at that OTHER poor soul -- I could be in a lot worse pickle than I am. It helps put things in perspective. It helps not only because we share the anguish of having LOs with AD, yes, but also because we share a lot of other problems, too.
It's also very comforting when someone who was in a deep well manages to claw her way out. We'll all be looking forward to you doing that, Val, because then we will all feel better. Sharing the "success" stories is just as important as sharing the problems.
I think they mean the bboard on the Alzheimer's association site. Look at
http://tinyurl.com/3kp9ob
I can't put my finger on it, but I agree, this site is different. I think the commonality of our problem with spouses is very important. To one degree or another, someone here has always been there, done that, got the t-shirt.
The Alzheimer's Association (www.alz.org), yes. They have a discussion forum with hundreds of members, and maybe ten times as many "lurkers". And it's a good site -- check it out. The Association itself has loads of useful info, and the members on the discussion forums offer all sorts of helpful tips on a host of different subjects. And they do care about each other, and they do try to help each other. (They also get into some pretty ... ah ... lively discussions. Their Admin has to step in and delete posts, even whole threads, and if members get too ... lively ... they are banned from the forum. And that does happen.)
It's just that the tone is so different. The percentage of people with AD spouses is vanishingly small -- it's all about "my grams" and "my great-grandpa". And there are subjects that you just plain CAN NOT bring up over there. They would never, ever, understand what we talk about.
The other site is the main message board on the Alzheimer's Association web site. It has different categories, one for caretakers, etc. Totally different from this one. I started there on the "other planet" & in one day someone rescued me. I guess whoever it was could tell from my questions I would be better off here.
I do hope some day I have a success story to share. Thanks all for not sitting in judgement & supporting me. I've always managed somehow to land on my feet, but I never had so many obstacles to overcome in the past.
Val: Did you ask the attorney this... if you were living in your house alone without your Dh, would that void or limit his right to make a claim of any kind on your property? I don't know if you have a choice regarding living in the house or if it is leased on a long term lease. I think that in some states a wife's private property if obtained prior to marriage is still their their sole property and if they are living on the property any debts of their husbands cannot be made against that property.
I was sent over here from Daily Support, by someone who posted on both sites. I still post there because there are almost daily people, mainly daughters, who are at the end of their ropes and need someone to tell them it is OK to vent. It is about all anyone can do for them there. The real problem with that support site is that there is no community. People come and go and mostly don't stick around long enough to help or be helped.
Still, through them I found the Alzheimer's Association, this community and one excellent pen pal. And I don't know what I would have done without all three.
My husband has no right to my property should I divorce him. It was purchased prior to marriage and is considered "separate" property and the same goes for his. What we are talking about is that if he should need long term care, Medicaid would consider my house as marital property & would have to be used to pay for his care before he would become Medicaid eligible. Since he thinks there's nothing wrong with him, and isn't making plans for the future, I couldn't convince him to get long term health insurance. With his previous diagnosis of small cell cancer, and the prognosis statistics, I don't even know if he could be insured for long term care anymore. I do have tenants in the house now & hopefully I will have a job so by next August when their lease expires I can afford to pay the mortgage on my own. If I can't make enough money to pay the mortgage, etc. I don't know what I will do.
My plan before all this was to work, pay off the mortgage completely, and the rental income would be my retirement money, which would have been enough were I still with my husband. I had been making big additional principal payments. The house we live in is paid off.
Interestingly, even though it is no way near tax time, my husband told me tonight that he plans to hire an accountant to do his taxes next year. He has always done his own taxes. I'm starting to wonder if he is beginning to have a difficult time with math. I guess I should have asked him why. I filed married, but separately this year, because I didn't want to be responsible if he made any mistakes.
Very good question about any debts of my husband's. I will ask the divorce attorney.
Not sure about this, but it is my understanding that medicare/medicaid allows spouse to keep their home regardless of joint or separate property and they do not include that in qualifying for assistant when you apply for financial help like for a nursing home. Also, spouse separate income i is not included in qualifying. I put all our CD's etc. in my name alone because their is a 30 month waiting period for things to be in the spouses name as separate property prior to applying or assistance. Maybe someone else has better info then I do. But, I wasn't taking any chances so I put everything in my name. Needless to say, my DH wasn't too happy about it, but he got over it and I didn't care if he got upset, I need the money to live on if when is this over.
Our financial advisor and atty had us put all our assets into separate revokable trusts. As expenses come up they all come out of my husband's account as medical costs (which is true). Hopefully if his is spent down mine will remain intact. bluedaze
Last night I went to hear an elder law attorney. I had been to hear a different one (both at ALZ Society sponsored events) a couple of months ago, and had made an appointment with that first one and gone over everything with her. Last night clarified a few points for me but he said essentially exactly the same thing.
Apparently MedicAID (not Medicare) is administered differently in each state but there are constants. One is that (no surprise) the spouse's income goes to support the spouse when s/he goes on medicaid. No surprise there. Another is that ALL OF YOUR ASSETS except your primary residence are split in half and you get to keep half and the other half goes to support the NH spouse. THIS INCLUDES money in a bank account in your name, money in CDs *in your own name*, in 529s for your grandkids, and revocable trusts. It does NOT include what the elder law lawyer last night called "STUFF." Coin collections, rare books, etc. It happens that in Rhode Island, where we live, IRAs are NOT counted as liquid items, so my IRA is intact. The income from my husband's of course would go to his care.
A second house will have to be liquidated to become part of the estate that will be split, as I understand. This obviously is often a summer home but as in Val's case, not so, but I didn't ask about something that you brought to the marriage like her house. The lookback has been changed for gifts to people other than spouses to *5 years* instead of three, but transfers between spouses are okay no matter what. (but the catch is that if it's transferred to the spouse it still then is part of the estate) And in RI, but I'm not sure about other states, the maximum the healthy spouse can get out of the split estate is $104,000. The NH spouse has to spend down everything else.
And the spend-down (from the NH spouse's part of the estate) can include a car (bought after they go in the NH), burial policies for both, certain home repairs, and a special annuity which is designed specifically to go with this medicaid requirement and which is paid to the CS - the "community spouse" as opposed to the NH spouse. The house can not be used to recover medicaid expenditures until after both spouses are dead.
The lawyer last night said that there is a lot of variability as to how the estate is divided, what is counted etc, not just from state to state but from jurisdiction to jurisdiction WITHIN a state. He stressed that most annuities do not meet the medicaid requirements, and they must not be bought until the NH spouse is IN a NH and you are applying for medicaid. This is also what the previous lawyer had said - wait! until the spouse goes in a NH and then act quickly.
So if you have done as I have and put CDs in your name, moved other investments to your name, etc, that may well not be enough to keep them from being considered part of the estate for medicaid purposes. My carefully separated-out "business" account where I've put the money I've made doing consulting, etc - that becomes part of the general estate also.
TALK TO AN ELDERLAW ATTORNEY!!! if you haven't done so. Even if you are dealing with an EOAZ person. I made the mistake earlier of dealing with an "estate planning" attorney. This is fine for drawing up wills and DPOAs but NOT for facing nursing home costs. In our state - and it's not the highest - nursing homes run over $6000/month. The guy last night said Medicaid is "where the middle class meets welfare."
Jane, I know you've looked into all this as well. Am I representing things accurately? Please correct me.
How often does the community spouse need to go on welfare and medicaid at the same time as the NH spouse? Frankly, just about all the money is in his name since he was in a position to save through 401(k) plans when I wasn't so we used my money to pay bills for decades and saved through his job. If he goes into a NH, I won't have enough income to pay utilities and eat much less pay the taxes on my house.
Basically there is no way I won't lose this house, which is paid for. Either I won't be able to pay the taxes on it, or they will take if from me to pay his costs in the nursing home, or both. From what I've read online, Pennsylvania is one of those states where they take the house. And basically most of our real "wealth" is in this house.
My understanding is that if medicare intends to get the house in the end, they cant initiate that process until AFTER the spouse who is living in it dies...they have a vested interest in it til then - divvi i am not sure now either bout this medicare business and NH. its so complicated, i just hope if my DH gets bad enough to need a nh i will just start hospice inhome and have a livein to help with him and cut costs. my oh my, its so awful we must go into poverty to take for a sick person in the richest country in the world..divvi, this stinks.
Yes, that's what the lawyer last night said - richest country and yet we have to go into poverty.
If you don't have enough income yourself some of your spouse's income can be diverted to you. By sheer CHANCE, I've been all these years living off mostly my own income and saving his so it won't make much difference to me on daily living. I can't believe that decisions we made 15-20 years ago now will pay off! Now that saved money can buy an in-house CNA for most of the time. But I'm not going to physically be able to care for him forever, I fear.
Starling, remember, that annuity can pay you monthly income. And there's no limit to how big it can be from his half of the savings. But yes, it can be scary.
Okay - here is what we all do....sell all the houses, put valuables and keepsakes in temperature controlled storage facilities and monthly rental fees to be paid directly from our accounts, and we all get on a cruise ship with AD specialists and doctors, with plenty of nurses, and those wanting to test for AD cures can have the tests done on their spouses, and we'll all have three meals a day, someone to clean up our rooms, do our laundry, and we can have massages, facials, etc. Also, we can have each other to talk to in person. Those of you who have mean step-children won't have to worry because they can't reach you legally or physically. The doctors and specialists can control those spouses with rages and violent tendencies. Medicaid won't get our money. And maybe a cure will be found.
I saw an Elder Attorney last week and found out some things we need to do. I have to make another appointment for my DH and myself to see her again. She needs my DH's input on somethings while he is still able to make a decision.
One thing I need to ask her but thought some of the knowledgable people here would know is about buying a house. We have a condo on the 3rd floor. No elevator, so I know the time will come when my DH will not be able to make the steps and he is too big for me handle.
The question I have is.... should we buy a house now or wait until everything is done with the Elder Attorney. I have no idea if it would make a diference. I am going next Wednesday to look at some places with the realtor who sold out house when we moved here.
Thanks for any info anyone has. I don't post too often but I read a couple of times a day and wonder just how you folks make it day after day. I think you all deserve a medal
My understanding is that primary residences stay with the spouse. If you are trading living spaces (i.e., 3rd floor to 1st floor condo) and they are of relatively equal value - it shouldn't make a difference.
It is so sad that with all of the horrors of just dealing with the disease, we end up with having to make all kinds of financial decisions to ensure they get the care they need and hopefully leave us with something so we can continue to pay for ourselves in the future. There is something wrong with a scenario that leaves not just the spouse with the disease on welfare but the caregiving spouse too.
Thank you all so much for sharing the information of what you have learned - it is certainly lots of food for thought.
How about instead of a cruise, sell our houses & move to a country where they don't take your property to care for anyone. THAT WOULD BE ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE WESTERN WORLD. Don't mean to offend you Republicans, but I'm voting for Obama, hoping someone will finally change our health care system. We are the only country in the Western World that doesn't have universal health care. The physicians have a very strong lobbying group & so far I think that's what's prevented change.
If Joan could copy Jane's information about Medicaid somewhere to the side of the home page, poor Jane wouldn't have to keep repeating it. She was the one who clued me in on the Medicaid information on a way back previous thread. Seems like a lot of us are uniformed. If it hadn't been for Jane, I would have been in the dark. I had no idea my house would have to be used for medical care for my husband. (yes, I would be able to keep a PORTION of the value of the house.) I've worked all these years to get the principal paid down. That would mean all my effort to put money into something for my retirement would be gone.
So much of the confusion you have talked about and having to pull this all together, along with having had a consultation with an elder law attorney last week, is the reason that I have decided to rob a bank and hire the man to do the whole ball of wax. He will draw up my will etc (DH has had his for 3 yrs), change beneficiaries to a trust which he will set up, fill out all the papers for medicaid/NH, etc. and take all the flack from DH's mother and sister! It is a 3 yr contract for $9500 total for the contract. I work a full time job, know very little of the in's and out's of this whole thing, and that attorney has had much much experience in dealing with all this mess. I can only hope I'm as happy with the results as I think I will be. GOK!!!
Oh yes! Book me for that cruise! Relatives who haven't seen DH in over 2 yrs are telling me how to take care of him and what to do -- them not being able to contact me sounds GREAT!
therrja, I know that the spouse can keep the house but we wouldn't be moving to another condo and whatever we get will be more expensive the way the housing is here in SC. I just wonered if it would make a difference when we did it. Before or after everything is settled as far as finances and what the Elder Attorney does.