I have read here that many of you have had problems with stepchildren, and I anticipate that my stepdaughter will challenge my husband's will when he passes. When we had our wills redone by an attorney shortly after his diagnosis, the appropriate language was put in to show that she was not forgotten, but that she was deliberately not provided an inheritance. She is barely involved with my husband and has given me virtually no help since his diagnosis years ago. However, I know she will expect a significant inheritance later on.
My question is, has anyone here been advised of any proactive stance that one could take in advance of this happening? Is there any type of documentation or anything that I could be doing at this point to help out later on?
We are in the process of having our trust reviewed and make updated. For reasons not unlike yours, but not exactly the same( family matters can sure muddy waters), one phrase that is inserted in our trust is that ANYONE who challenges this trust in any way is disinherited.
I am not a lawyer and I know that trusts are kept out of probate unless there is something that got left out. Simple wills are another matter. I would contact your lawyer now. I gather you DH cannot make any decisions that could not be challenged so it may be very hard to change his will in any way. On the other hand if it says in his will that everything goes to you and upon your death XYZ are distributed to the following beneficiaries as follows....and if it has anything in it that says that any one who tries to contest this will is automatically disinherited that might enough..
Contact your lawyer soon and see what needs done and what might need to be done as regards your own will..maybe you will want a trust..
I am seeing an elder care attorney. My brother is a lawyer in another state and he checked my lawyer out and I am in very good skilled hands..that is a relief. Wish I could be more helpful. But like they say on TV..I am not a lawyer..just a sea lawyer which means I could be all wrong.
Yes, we are in the beginning process now of doing a trust and my husband does not want to leave his two sons anything. Our Elder Attorney has advised him to leave them $5,000 each in the trust to be payable upon my death if I don't spend it and there is anything left that can be considered above and beyond my sole property. I know how you all feel. It could become a real mess so I had to do some hard talking to my DH to get him to leave them each $5,000. My DH has said we are going to spend most everything that he has in his name (his IRA) and we immediately made reservations for a 14 day cruise and will be doing more travel this year.
Judith, How did your lawyer come up with a figure to "leave" for the sons your husband doesn't wish to remember at all? Also check into the statement about anyone who tries to challenge or contest this trust will be automatically disinherited. For similar reasons I have people listed in my trust that will be remembered with a small token and the word token is used. I cannot see leaving great sums or even items or heirlooms to sons and daughters, nieces and nephews, or anyone else in the food chain who have not taken the time to reciprocate within family relationships and behave as if they are owed anything and everything. If they can't pick up the phone and say thanks for gifts sent,,,,to hell with em. I would sooner see anything I had left given to the Alzheimer's research or other such illnesses than a bunch of family vultures.
Mimi...Sorry, but I don't know how the $5,000 amount was determined. I e-mailed my attorney earlier this week and told him my DH didn't want to leave his sons (bums) anything and he e-mailed me back that it was a very bad idea not to leave something and could be setting the will up to be contested. He then went on to say leave $5,000 to each of the sons and state they don't get it until I die if there is any money left at that time. My husband finally agreed to that amount after I explained to him that surely he didn't want me to have any problems with his kids. He seemed to understand that part very well and agreed to the $5,000 each. We are just beginning the with this Elder attorney to get all things in their proper place and try to save our assets. If I am understanding the attorney, I think he plans on having my husband gift most everything to me and then I will have a "care trust" that will and can be used for his care. I really don't know all the details at this time, but will post more as I know and if others can add to this thread it would be great for us "newbies" in this matter.
Forgot this part: I posted this on another thread earlier this week. Our attorney wants my husband to see another attorney that will talk to him and then the attorney will sign a "Certificate of Independent review". This means that my DH also told the second attorney what he wanted to give his sons (nothing) and understands what he is saying in regards to them. I really have no problem with this because my DH is really....really....pi**ed at them. His sons live in a state 1,000 of miles from us and his one son and the son's girl friend tried to "steal" him. His son was going to come here take him back to their state and then (they said they would send him back on a plane by himself). But, that wasn't really their plan....and no way would I let my DH travel alone. They planned on keeping him there and getting a POA and getting his money. When I said he was not getting on any plane by himself and I would bring him back to see them and then take him home again...they had a fit and spilled the beans....like...."I want the POA for my dad...he doesn't want to stay with you...etc." As if I don't have enough problems. Wow...what a problem....I began to feel like "Stunt Girl". Poor gal...
We had a similar problem with my departed DH's son who we have not seen nor heard from for 15 years now, and if I only knew why! It was his wish that I not contact his son, so I haven't and he does not know he passed away. You don't have to leave anyone anything, as long as it is spelled out in the will, and can even phrase that they are getting nothing "for reasons best known to them". That will send a message. Why not hold off with that $5,000; you may need every cent of it yourself! We do not know what the future holds. If at some time in the future after your husband passes away, they turn themselves around and realize what they have done (not done, really!) and prove themselves to be worthy, then you could leave whatever is appropriate, at YOUR discretion, not the attorney's. The attorney obviously has not had this problem in his family.
My advice? Become friends with your attorney and keep in touch. This is coming from a widow who was married to her DH for 20 years..He was married twice before. Divorced the children's mom in early 80's, later remarried a woman who died 2 years later...and then he married me. NOW, the children are suing me for $300,000 ..a sum they claim was (originally) to have been left to their mother back when they were married. That policy does not exist! So now they are suing his estate. His will is very clear about the children (who rarely saw him in the 20 years we were married)... and they were to inherit from him ONLY if I had predeceased him - and he had not remarried. Son had a copy of that will. NOPE, they are going for the kill.... my house, car, investments, insurance policies, everything .. "but ony for their 85 year old mother" who lives on a handsome QDRO pension from his retirement. I am assured over and over I have NOTHING to worry about, but the heartache and harrassment is what hurts so much. If they'd only just "go away". I know I'm safe and my funds are absolutely untouchable, --- but they aren't giving up. So back to my original statement,,... get in with a good lawyer who will be around for the long haul...get your docs in order and you'll be ok. But expect to be harrassed. ... It's just not fair, is it?
Judith, Thank you for your information. I too am working with an elder care lawyer and we are at the stage where the POA etc is being updated first since I need that for myself should anything happen and I need an "agent"...She also is working on how to save our assets. She said something about two trusts but didn't go into detail with it. She has a couple other ways to go to so I will be getting a letter next week which details everything and then we will make any corrections etc..I was interested in this Care Trust..I suppose what our lawyer is talking about is something like that in order to keep my sole and separate property out of the reach of the govt vultures.
I have made a video of my wifes wishes. This is in reguard to her health care issues. My step son has shown no interest in his mom, not even calling her. He want to remember her as she was, how sweet!
Our doctor has said when the end comes, he has seen this type of person feel very guilty and then try what ever means to keep them alive. My wife does not want to be treated for any other life threatening disease. The doctor has agreed not to go looking for something he is not going to treat. I thought it would be good to have a video of her talking about her health care wishes in case someone does not agree to honor them. I think hearing it from her in her own words is a better way.
As moorsb said, Video is a very good idea to record LO wishes while still able to communicate. It is also a good way to track behavior and the inevitable decline. Towards the end, when it was going very bad, you can show the doctor what you are seeing and living with. Telling the doctor that she's irrational, violent, dangerous and trying to kill us all, depends on your own verbal ability to communicate. You are still subject to "it can't be that bad", "you are over reacting" and a hundred other interpretations based on how the doctor feels that day. It is much more effective to say, "I've got trouble, watch this" and show a few minutes of what happened at your house an hour ago.
Joan, this advice might be worth a separate thread or link from the home page.
The video idea definitely relates to the original post by Beverly, who is concerned that her stepdaughter will try to challenge the will. However, it is VERY IMPORTANT that you check with a certified elder law attorney as to the legality and challenging ability of video wills and last wishes. I'm guessing that laws are different in each State.
The video is in addtion to her legal documents. This is to show her mental state, to show her wishes not to be kept alive with feeding tube, or not to treat , or go looking for something that you do not want to treat.
moorsb, What a great idea. I am in process of having our trust etc updated and once we get that done, I think I will do the same thing as I have step kids too and who knows what they will think. Mine love their dad and do come to see him but there are times when he was in better shape, their kids notwithstanding, could have come to visit him more often seeing as how they could find ways to take lots of other trips.... That will put his words to their ears should there be any trouble. I really don't anticipate any problems with them but just in case....human nature can be a strange thing.
I have two video camera but I got a smaller one ( my old one is not digital and the new one is) just for the purpose you mention..to record his behaviour and other changes. I can slip it in my purse to use elsewhere with him as well and the older one with cassetts is ready too. I got to thinking that I should use it for more than maybe outburst ( which he is not likely to have) but more in keeping with his off and on grooming matters, walking , talking on the phone etc. Great ideas coming on this thread.
I did some video and audio taping when my husband was in the "difficult" stage. I just wanted there to be some sort of record if something happened to one of us during his tirades and refusals to bathe, change clothes, etc. I listened to them about a year ago and I couldn't believe how tired and "dead" I sounded.....what a horrible disease.....
I think this is a good topic for those of us with step children. When my husband and I where married he came with a boat load of debt. Our assets were accumulated by hard work from both of us after our marriage. Some years he made more and now that he is disabled I'm the primary bread winner. We always included his son in the family get togethers and vacations.
When my husband was diagnosed I went to an attorney who specialized in estate planning, who is my step son's FIL. If my husband should die before me all of our assets would go to me (or into a trust if I so chose). A trust would be set up for his care if he should survive me. In my opinion our children and his son should not receive anything until both of us pass. Should I be the last to die I have a percentage of our estate going to my step son -which is only fair since he continues to be a big part of our lives.
An interesting note our estate attorney said that the children would have to sign off on the will at the time of our deaths. Has anyone encountered this? I'm not sure if this is done during probate. I'm also considering removing my husband's name from all of our properties in case I have to sell something to pay for his care. I've been told I can handle this with a quick claim deed.
Nancy- How very insensitive of your step children to try to sue you for money. Try not to worry to much about this and I hope all goes well for you.
My dad was the only one that had a will. When he died, even though I did not receive anything, it was sent certified and I had to sign for it - by the time the nursing home /medicaid got their portion there was only a couple thousand left from the sale of the house. My mom had nothing and had no will. My MIL and FIL did not have wills even though my MIL had told me years ago they did. I think what she was referring to was the quit claim deed on the house. I am not sure what benefit it is since it still has to go through probate except it is clear that each child is to have equal portions.
Trish...perhaps you might want to see an ELDER LAWYER. I thought I was well read on various things considering, deeds, trusts, medical eligibility, etc. I soon found out just a couple of weeks ago that I would have done most everything wrong to protect myself and my husband and I actually knew a lot less then I thought I did.
We are signing the papers tomorrow to have every thing put in proper order. It is not cheap but it is better then losing $$$$$ by doing the wrong thing and not protecting both my DH and myself.
Our attorney is not an elder law attorney but is one of the top estate attorney's in our state. He did set up trusts, POA, health care directives etc.. The signing of the wills had as much paperwork as a house closing. He was not cheap- his normal charge would have been $14-15,000 but charge us less than 1/3 of that. My POA allows me to sell our properties but I'm concerned this would not be specific enough.
It has been my understanding that an elder law attorney would be the best choice to protect assets from Medicaid. I believe we have to much income and assets and would not qualify for Medicaid. I'm ok with this and have future monies earmarked for DH's care if needed.
Trish, I thought our trust was aok too but was encouraged by information here as well as from the ALZ ASSN here in our area to consult with an Elder Lawyer and I am glad I did. Our first lawyer did our trust but I found out that something important as a result of a change in the law in 2003 should have been addressed in 2008 when we reviewed our trust.. Now we are having the whole of it reviewed and changes made in POA, advance directives etc addressed. I too think we are not eligible for medicaid but that said, there may be other issues to be of concern. One thing our lawyer said would be spelled out clearly, and I am not quite sure how this would work yet, would be that if DH has to go to long term care, how it is to be provided and that the trust is in effect and they do not come into anything until both of us are floating on a cloud in heaven..it will be specific as to what happens if anyone dares contest it etc.. As to the fees, my intake interview which lasted a good 2 hours or so, was about 250.00. The cost of the legal work is not a set fee, but depends upon what is likely to be involved and I think inour case or the case of one who has property and funds, there is more work so the fees would be higher but that said our lawyer is not charging what yours has..at least not so far.
In our area, there are lawyers who belong to the organization or association of elder care lawyers, not all are certified..ours is certified in estate planning and certified in elder care law as well as a real estate broker so I feel very confident that all areas of concern will be reviewed. I expect to hear something this week...and yes I am nervous about what is in store. I did learn that not all good estate lawyers have the grasp on the needs of those who face long term care. When we did our original trust, both of us were in good health and had no clue what was in the wings.
Congrats, Trish, that you are sure you have enough money to cover all eventualities. I had thought so too but when I found out that we could go on for years and years - ten or more - with him in a nursing home, which costs currently about $85,000/year, I changed my mind, especially since I'm 11 years younger than he is and need, I hope, money to survive and thrive AFTER, as Mary says.
The attorney that is doing the work for my DH and me is a certified Elder Attorney, certified estate planning, tax, etc. I don't have his business card right now, but he is certified in the things we are interested in.
Trish..I forgot and briegull reminded me to add..my DH is 17+ years senior to me. So I too have to make sure I have something left. I dread the thought of having to place him in a nh or any other facility..but who knows what the future will hold.
I agree about the importance of "after". I'm in my early fifties and plan on working for several more years.
Briegull- Thanks for pointing out the fact that care can stretch out for several years. A co-worker recently placed his end stage spouse in a nice facility and the cost was about four thousand a month. With my salary, LTC insurance and different sources of income I can handle that cost. My first preference would be live in care. My husband is still in the early stages so I haven't investigated all of my options.
Mimi- Our attorney's normal rate is $500.00/hr. We had the wills done shortly after my husband's diagnosis, and I was a basket case unable to think rationally. Looking back I would have inquired about the cost beforehand and would have gone with an elder law attorney.
I am one of those with step-children. At this point, I don't think that there will be anything left on his side when he goes but I still expect his children to cause problems. He chose to not include them in his will. I have given them things of their father's as I have cleaned out - family pictures, camera and the equipment to go with it, a good set of golf clubs and various other family items. I wanted to give them cash when we were changing the wills (mine and a minor change to his) but they raised such a fuss about changing the wills, we ended up not giving them anything.
One of the things I have run into with the wills/financial/tax people that we have dealt with is that they are all focused on their area of expertise and don't necessarily see the whole picture. I could have moved more money out of the IRA but would have paid big $$$ in taxes. From a long term financial perspective - IRA funds should be used last. From the lawyer's perspective - move the money. Talk about feeling confused. Every direction I turned on that, there were very negative consequences. As it will turn out the question is moot as when I finally need Medicaid, we will be within that 5 year window. Moral of story, it is very important to get good advice when you can carefully asses it and think it through. Having to move fast with these matters makes it a lot harder to make good decisions.
I dunno....John's will was pretty simple, and he had no property to endow. So, no one can contest what dad doesn't have any longer. But when I had my own rewritten recently, I was warned to 'acknowledge' each of the children, even if I were leaving them nothing so that later none of them can pop up and say, "Oh, she forgot to mention me". Laws are most likely different everywhere. Mostly, I worry about probate and taxes. I don't want what I would consider a "gift" to an institution for example, to become more a liability to them than a blessing!!
therjja....interesting what you have to say about an IRA. My husband has one and he is going to take it out of that status before Dec. 31, 2010 and pay the taxes. We both feel taxes are going to be going up in the future. So bite the bullet now and the interest rate is so low now that you can't over-come a tax increase burden with interest. We both feel it is not wise to keep it in the IRA status any longer.
therrja, I don't understand something...you said, with regard to changing your wills, minor for yours, that "they raised such a fuss we ended up not giving them anything". I assume you are referring to the step kids. My question, if you don't mind my asking, ( since I also have step kids) is why would you inform them of anything in your will? In my view, my step kids have no right to know what is in my will anymore than I have a right to know what is in theirs..(they all have kids, the youngest grand kid is 13). I don't think it is any of their business ( refers to my situation). In your case, you have been very considerate already giving them things that belonged to their dad.. I would do the same thing. One time, when the middle girl was visiting with her now ex spouse, the ex asked right to my face, " for our planning purposes, I want to know what we stand to inherit". I told him he stood to inherit not one thing...nada, zilch, hole in the doughnut.
Stunt girl* Have you considered having a trust, now that you are free of obligations to those step kids, rather than a will? I think I would look into it when you have some time. It might be a good move for your and your peace of mind.
Yes, my father has discussed this with me. A trust definitely seems to be something I should look into. I would want to protect my estate and that which I would inherit from mom and dad so that as much as possible goes to the institutions I've named.
As for kids and grandkids, there has been SO MUCH infighting from step children and our own that even the grandparents have rewritten the family trust to exclude them! I've done the same with my Will and LET THEM KNOW IT. So, there's no reason to come sniffing around me unless they genuinely want my company. My parents would one day roll over in thier graves, so to speak, if any of those (especially step-kids) got their hands on anything passed on to me. Besides, the only real 'legacy' I have to pass on as far as assets go is the farm......I have lots of 'stuff'. I have a feeling it would just be one big garage sale if left to the kids.
Also, I AGREE...your finances are NONE OF THE KID'S BUSINESS!! I've never questioned my own parents, they've just given me information over the last few years on a need to know basis...in case something were to happen to them, I could act on thier behalf quickly. Not so with John. I was always appalled by how open he was with adult matters when they were small (yet, our finances were none of MY business!!?). When I was growing up, just touching my mothers purse was a BIG taboo!
Your upbringing and mine mirror one another. My mom's purse was her territory and no one not dad not us kids NO ONE got into it unless she gave the instructions to get her something from it. I too never got into my parents financial business. The gave information on the need to know basis. I always believed that what they had worked for was theirs and it was their right to do with it as they desired and if that meant giving it all to the church so be it. I remember after my mom died and dad asked me one time what I would like for Christmas, I told him I didn't want him to spend his money on me ( we had caregivers for him at his advanced age of 88) so what I would enjoy would be for him to select something of Mom's for me that I could have as a keepsake. He told me to go the hutch and take all her china..I took just a few pieces and have since expanded it into a nice tea set thanks to antique shops..it keeps mom close that way. After dad passed on, I do have all mom's things.
Mimi, you are right, it was a bit unclear. We changed both of our wills and signed the house over to my name only at the time. The only change in his will was that the house was taken out of it. This was when he was first diagnosed. I agree, it is none of his children's business what his finances are or were. They always had the mistaken impression that Dad was rich and the way he talked sometimes, I think added to that impression. Unfortunately, shortly after I placed him, they initiated a suit for Conservatorship of their father. I was able to prove that their complaints were groundless and they dropped the suit.
When they made the fuss, they were reacting to many things many of which were blown way out of proportion or taken out of context. There were some "helpful" relatives and friends who reported some of what they saw/heard to them and I got a lot of negative feedback from his sons. Talk about accusations - I got a bunch of them that kind of left me reeling from the venom of them and the inaccuracy. Those are some very painful memories but I also got a lesson on trusting noone. For those that see the word reporting - his sons went fishing with people that they thought I would and did talk to looking for information. It has been interesting that those same people have gradually turned against his sons over the years as they have seen what I am doing for my husband. Before all of this, I would have told you I had a good relationship with his sons - shows how wrong I was.
I use to read Dear Abby and be amazed at all the fighting over 'mom and dad's' money, or bickering over who gets what, etc. and just could not believe it was true (I knew they were). All your horror stories prove to me they are very much true. I am truly sorry for all your troubles. I, too , was brought up never hearing anything about finances and my mom's purse was off limits, even the electric and phone bills. I knew nothing of what other bills my mom had to pay.
I was shocked with the email from my daughter last week in one of our conversations that went ugly that she is angry that we are spending her inheritance by our RV lifestyle.
None of this is a surprise to me. At the end of life....true colors of others come to light. My two daughters have never asked me one little question of what I have in my own name or what my husband has in his own name or what we share jointly. I have always told them that what ever I have (if anything...and don't count on anything) would be shared equally between them ....PERIOD.
We are living in an age of "entitlement", dears. I, like many of you, am a "baby boomer". Life, and the new luxury of liesure time, JOBS, abounded after WWII. Mom and Dad, who were raised during the The Great Depression, grew up with hardship, war, and had to OVERCOME to BECOME. And, they wanted more for thier children than they were given....and surely, an easier life for us than they had to endure in their youth. And so, per example, we have commited to giving our own children at LEAST the best of what we grew up with, if not more. And, so it goes, from one generation to the next.
As I see it, our generation (boomers) and our children and now grandchildren haven't had to experience hardships and despair like war and poverty bring. Our kids, especially, expect "instant gratification" of thier hearts desires. A car is expected at graduation, college tuition, bail outs from poor decisions, "stuff"..... many fall into insurmountable debt to afford the lifestyle they expect to inherit from thier upbringing. WHAT HAVE WE DONE??!! My father and a lot of older people I know tell me that what this nation needs is a good war everyone can get behind (all the jobs, renewal of patriotism, a community mentality for frugality). Isn't that sad? I think its true, unfortunately. SOMEthing has to happen to wake us up.
Okay, I know this isn't a political forum, so relax.....not saying what party I support or don't. I just think that our kids are getting more and more greedy. Face it, it is HARD to have what mom and dad had. The kids expect affluence right away. I think we forget how hard mom and dad had to work to get to where they are.....maybe you and I haven't forgotten that. But our kids and grandchildren have no clue. And, they expect to be taken care of. Just the way I see it.
I know. Just kind of a generalization (unfairly) of what I've witnessed.......that "failure to launch" and greediness. And I've just formulated what may be the cause of it all. I didn't have one of those kids you describe. I feel a failing somewhere in my nurturing skills. Maybe John and I gave too much. Probably. No, not meaning to sound so much like Rush Limbaugh!!!!! Never meant harm to anyone. I'm sure many of you have great kids that have done much for themselves. My kudos!
Like bluedaze, my four children (now three) are successful responsible adults, and my grandson is married and has three children and is responsible as well. I'm very proud of them. They are here for me (with my husband's AD) and understand what is going on. Lmohr's children were there for her as well.
This discussion is about STEP-children trying to challenge husband's will, and we all realize that a lot of stepchildren feel entitled to inherit (look at our Houston friend's situation for one). However, not ALL stepchildren are that way either. Some are very loving and caring and help the spouse out during this horrible time we're going through. I think we need to "be prepared" for any contingency... I was always a good Girl Scout. <grin>
therraja, That is what I worry about..as far as I know my relationship with the girls is fine...but I feel that if only one goes postal for any reason, that can influence the others.. I heard the middle girl tell someone when she thought I was not within ear shot, " she is keeping my dad alive!" and the youngest who stayed with him for 2 weeks while I was away also knows the pitfalls but the eldest is out of the country and because she is not here is the one more likely to cause trouble if anyone would. I have hope none of this will happen but as you know...ugly things happen when there is illness and people start to think what they should have now..
Therrja, my experience is very much like yours, and yes, you can never trust them again. I like Nancy B's take on it: there will come a time when we'll never have to deal with them again. It will be good to say "amen" to that aggravation and persecution.
I inherited some money and it has made such a difference in my life, not having to worry about running out of money at the end of the month and having that 20% downpayment for a house. (Actually it allowed us to buy a larger house while keeping the first one to rent out, so we ended up with two paid off houses.) What I inherited first came from my great-grandmother, so it felt like many years of family tradition. I protected that money with a prenuptial agreement, but that doesn't protect it from having to be spent before getting Medicaid. I'm thinking I'm going to start passing some of it to my kids by paying some of their college tuition, even though they have savings accounts from my father with enough money to cover tuition. It is hard to let go of money that feels like part of my safety net, but I have a very good pension and am only talking about giving away maybe 10% of my net worth. No step-children involved, but I wanted to thrown in another perspective.
Gifting, if you can afford to do so is commendable and worthwhile. If I had had the cash to spare, I'd love to see my daughters enjoying it before I die, witness my being able to make a difference in their lives.
Pam, you were fortunate to get that inheritance when you were still young. We have more savings than we'll probably need and If I live till I'm 90 it won't get to the kids until they're too old to need it. So besides the maximum tax-free gift each year I'm also figuring out ways to get more funds to the kids without big taxation. As a Christmas present I offered them the chance to put their transatlantic flights -- to see each other -- on my credit card, and they have both taken me up on that.