I'm interested in knowing how you are coping with advance directives. Have any of you had success in involving your spouse in planning for the eventuality that you will not be able to continue to care for him or her or if something should happen to you? I tried to bring up this subject and to my question as to what he would do if something happened to me, his response was to laugh and say he would be dancing!! My mom and I both tried our best to bring about a serious discussion, but to no avail. My husband is still very capable of planning in other ways and I feel it is important that we get this settled and in writing but I don't know how to go about. According to his test scores he is at the beginning of the moderate stage of AD. Anyone have any experience?
Yes, we did talk about it. Joel in California is our only child. After Sid and I signed all the legal papers making me in charge of everything- financial and medical - I told Joel that my biggest worry was if I died, what would happen to Sid. I said that Sid would be in a nursing home in Florida, and Joel would have to come visit every couple of months. Not a good situation. Joel said that wasn't going to happen. He said if something happened to me, he was coming to Florida to get his Dad and take him to California. My daughter-in-law told me not to worry about it at all. She agreed with Joel completely.
I have to tell you honestly that both Sid and I cried when we heard what they said.
Have you done the legal stuff yet - powers of attorney; living wills; wills?
We went to a lawyer and had all the durable POA's, living wills & wills drawn up. It is not cheap. The lawyer normally charges $500.00 per hour and would have charged us $10,000- 13,000.00. Since he is the father-in-law of my husbands son he said it would only be about $3000.00. I'm still waiting for the bill to come in the mail. We have trusts set up so that if soemthing should happen to me DH would be cared for. Should I end up in a coma there are provisions for my step son to take over the finances and care for the college kids and DH. I have also gotten my husband to sign paperwork so that I will be able to manage his IRA accounts. Before I would hand the phone to him and he would answer questions so that I could talk to the account represenatives. This week I had a question about his IRA and for idenity purposes he was asked who were the benificiary on his account. He looked at me because he had no clue- I realized that I needed to take control before he starts forgetting his birthday.
Bill and I each had DPOA, living trust and will drawn up when he first was having problems. If anything should happen to me the girls were named to take my place in making decisions concerning what happens to Bill. They have all told me that they would take care of their Dad. Not long ago, I went to an Elder Law Attorney and he removed all assets from Bill's Trust and put them into mine. We were able to do this because I had DPOA and letters from two doctors as required by the trust. The attorney assured me this would help me in case Bill had to go to a NH. He also had me change beneficiaries on my life insurance. Removing Bill's name and putting the girls' names.
We redid our wills and POAs (the originals required notes from 2 MDs to enact, the new ones do not,) and did estate planning which puts things in trust form. We also have advance directives and such, which was interesting, because although Jeff is named as my first-in-command, my daughter and sister are named as 2nd and 3rd--something I did knowing that it would really be in their hands should things come to that. Considering Jeff's relative level of with-it-ness, though, it would have seemed awkward and strange to leave him out entirely.
Emily, you did exactly as I did when naming your first-in command, I also named my husband for the very same reasons as you. Later I have changed my DPOA to name our daughter as first and my sister as second, the Attorney told me that if I left it the way I had it with Jim first in command, and our daughter second, our daughter would be placed in the position of having to prove that Jim could not act for me, so rather than go through that I just went ahead and updated mine. Something to think about.
I have not done as Joyce did and removed Jim from the Beneficiary on Life Insurance, I will wait for that part until and if the time comes that I have to apply for Medicaid, I would want Jim to receive the Insurance unless he happens to be on Medicaid. I feel the Life Insurance funds would help provide him with better care. Jane
Jane, the attorney told me to change beneficiaries or I would not have done it either. As of now the only thing we have in Bill's name is the checking account and a small savings account when his pension and SS is direct deposited. any of thes things, except I know the girls will use any insurance to help take care of their dad. I also removed Bill as first on my DPOA for the same reason as you. I figured the girls would have a hard enough time without having to prove Bill incompetent.
I used my mother's threat when she put everything she had in my name. "You had better do the right thing or I will come back and haunt you". The girls were old enough to watch my brother and sisters and I after my mother passed. Not one argument on who got what. As for the larger items, like the car and appliance and furniture, it was who needed it the most got it. No keeping track of what these items were worth. Hopefully, if something should happen to me, the girls will live by example and not by greed.
Joyce, I agree with you, we have to have a certain element of trust in those that will be in the caregiving place if something does happen to us and I think we should make it easy for them. I started doing the bank account thing, changed my Social Security to a Bank Account with my name only, and when we had a CD mature just last week I was going to have it put in my name with Jim as Payable on Death, but then the Bank Representative talked me into just putting the CD in both our names, I think I was stupid to do that and will not in the future. I am having a hard time getting all into just my name due to the fact that so much of it is in accounts that mature over time. It is taking forever. It is hard to accept that our husbands would have to have someone take care of any money for them if something happened to us, that is one of the hardest things I am dealing with now, I feel so unfaithful in taking all from his name but yet I know that I should.
Joyce, I also meant to add that the hard part for me is trying to protect both myself and Jim. It seems that anything I do is protecting me but not really protecting Jim and I want to do both. How do you feel about this?
Joyce, I keep thinking of things that keep me upset about this. The one problem I have with all in our name and none in our husbands name, especially if you have changed beneficiary and changed your will, is the fact that our dear children whom we hope will take care of their Dad, could suddenly die and then all would be left in their estate, none left for Jim and Bill. I always think of the worse that could happen and I have seen it happen Joyce. I can see this change being done if applying for Medicaid and I feel that is what the Attorney had in mind, but what if no Medicaid is applied for, then why do the beneficary change? At least if the money were left to our husbands, it would not fall into the estate of another person if something happened to them. I have seen children die and parents be left with the In-law to deal with where the in-law takes another husband or wife. It is not a pretty picture.
I know I am rambling on here but it is really something to think about.
This whole thing of planning ahead with spouse having AD can get very complicated. When Paul was first diagnosed, we went to our CPA who is also our financial advisor and he directed us to see an attorney. We then saw our attorney who also has an elder care atty in practice with him (actually we seen both of them over time). We had a DPOA done for both of us.(this has not been changed - should it?) I have two letters from two different Dr.'s stating that Paul has been diagnosed with AD and can NOT make financial decisions. HOWEVER, my husband ran a business prior to all this and one of his employees who KNEW his diagnosis and had many conversations with me ragarding financial issues before I had all the bank acct. changed.....walked my husband into the bank and withdrew a total of $4,000. When the bank statement came in the mail (Paul never gets the mail now, too much has been lost over the past year), I asked Paul what in the world did you withdraw $4,000 for??? He could not remember. I asked the trusted worker who then was taking him places and getting paid very well for his time, etc. He lied and said he had no idea what Paul would spend the money for and did not recall taking him to the bank to withdraw it. I called the bank, they verified that Paul had come in, got a counter check and made it out to this worker. They said they were concerned then, but Paul had a legal right to do this. So.......to make a long story short, I contacted my atty, HE TOLD ME TO GET ALL THE MONEY OUT OF PAUL'S NAME which included several accounts. I met with the bankers and I also filed a report with the law inforcement. They investigated this and discovered that the trusted worker had bilked Paul out of the money and spent the money for drugs. What a mess !!!! The way I was able to take all the money out of Paul's name and put it all in my name was because we had set up a trust and I had DPOA and the accounts were all in the trust. We are duel administrators of the trust, but Paul does not understand that he has DPOA, he does not remember what we had put in the trust and he does not remember anything about the will. He just does not remember this stuff. I have all the legal documents and have discussed this with our children. If it had not been for the guy stealing the money and me having to take immediate action, I probably would still be dragging my feet. At the time, I was angry and was afraid Paul would do something foolish. Everytime (back then) when I would try to talk to him about money, he would say he was going to the bank, draw all the money out and bury it. He could have done that....so I was motivated to do something fast!
Eventually, we got done all that I guess I can do for now. However, if something happens to me before him, all our assets which include savings, CD's, investments and property would have to be used for his care. He would not be eligible for Medicaid for a long while. He has good health insurance STRS, but no long term care ins. The atty. told me that the only way I could prevent this was to establish an irrevocable trust. There would still be a five year "lookback". He was very much against this option, because if something would happen to Paul first, I might need the property and investments for my care/retirement.
This all gets very, very complicated and varies according to our individual situations, etc. BUT, I have felt so.....guilty throughout this whole processs. This whole thing came to a head in April 2007. Paul was diagnosed in May 2006. We did all the legal stuff in June 2006. The support group members say "spend it, enjoy it - buy a new car, travel, or whatever."
Paul has progressed a lot since diagnosis. I am wondering if I need to make another apt. with the atty and change anything. Paul and I never talk about money or trusts or wills or anything now. If the subject comes up, he just says Jayne takes care of everything now. I still feel guilty that he has no money. He worked all his life, very hard, and he can't even buy a car or truck without me. He knows I did something with the bank accounts, but even if I explained it, he would now be able to process it.
At this point in yur lives Paul does not "need" his own money. You are there to take care of him. Please do not feel guilty for what you've done. After listening to your story I'm going to look into putting the bulk of our liquid assets into my own account. My husband has never managed the money during our marriage and always trusted me to do so. He does not carry a checkbook but he does have a credit card. I will continue to monitor the situation to make and when the time comes I will take that away for him.
Jayne, Yes, if you have a DPOA with your husband as your POA even though you have named a second person in case your husband cannot act, yours does need to be changed. The second person you named would have to go through the process of proving that your husband could not act as POA for you. I do feel the bulk of the liquid assets should be in the name of the spouse who is caregiver, my problem is with the husband being taken off as beneficiary on life ins. or named as person to receive the full estate in our wills. I know that if you have to apply for Medicaid that would not need to be the case, but a person would have time to change the will and beneficiary before applying for Medicaid.
right now I have my husband named as POD (payable on Death) on any accounts that are in my name only. I have him named as beneficiary on Life Insurance and named in the Will as first to receive all. I would plan to change those things in the event that he has to be placed. I feel that until that time, If I die before he does, I want him to receive what he has worked so hard to earn, it might be the difference in someone placing him and not placing him. Money can do strange things to people and Life situations can cause it to be even worse.
So many times Attorneys advise the change long before it is needed. For instance no one knows who will die first, even if our husbands have this disease, we could go long before they do. I do not want someone to place my husband before time. If he has money, someone has POA for him, they can manage HIS money and have to do it so that it is in his best interest. I trust our daughter very much but still I want to know that Jim is cared for if something also happens to our daughter. It is a very close line and hard to know what is right. I have to go with my heart.
Jayne's story is a useful cautionary tale. I've heard versions of it too many times. When we did some financial repositioning in preparation for Jeff's retirement, the bulk of assets went into a fund in my name only. We have an additional, smaller account that is joint, because Jeff is interested in reading up on the stock market and trying to make a few good picks, but it still requires attention on my part, and the joint account is still not an amount I would care to lose to fraud. The good(?) thing is that Jeff cannot remember how to log on to the website, so everytime he wants to check balances or something I have to be there to help. He has a credit card, which seems important as long as he has some independence, but I do have to be aware that he may manage to get online and subscribe to too much stuff. So I pay the bill, and examine the statement when it comes in.
I understand the ambivalence people are expressing about removing these things from the control of our AD LO's but you have to.
Emily, I am not expressing a problem about removing the names from the accounts and control of our AD LO's I am speaking of the inheritance part. I do know that the loved one does not need to have control and if they are protected by a POA then the POA would take the inheritance and see that it was used for the well being of the loved one. I am only speaking of money that would be left to them in the event that we pass on and not fall into the hands of other people leaving our husbands out. That is all I am saying here.
Yes, I see that possible problem. I'm thinking of others who have expressed general feelings of sadness and/or guilt about removing control of financial issues from the other person's hands though. I feel that way too at times. It's the whole feeling that goes along with sort of demoting one's spouse to child status, and just giving him money when he needs it.
Emily, I also have the guilt feelings. My husband has had the disease for 7 years and I am just now in the process of getting all into my name. I know that is stupid. I have always been the business person in our family, not only for myself and Jim but also for all of the family, they have always come to me for advise and here I am having problems with this money transfer thing. I know I am correct in changing it but yet I still have the guilt. I had part of it changed and let a stupid Bank Rep talk me into putting it back into both names. I will not make that mistake with the next items that mature. You cannot prepare for everything and you just have to do the best with the situation at hand I guess. I think we all feel the same way with the guilt, we must realize that what we are doing is in our husbands best interest also. I just worry about what happens if I die first. Nothing I can do about it but do the best I can.