Everything my DH and I have is in both our names so I have been wondering if I should talk to an Elder Attorney to protect some of our assets. My DH is 11 years older than me and has always wanted for enough money to be there to take care of me if something should happen to him. I do have DPOA for medical and financial decisions and my DH made out a living will at the same time.
He is still in the early stages of Alz but his short term memory seems to be worse and he has lost about 11lbs over the past few months. I know that is a side effect of Aricept which is the only Alz med he is on. He also is on a full dose aspirin and a 10mg Lisinopril for BP.
I bet you get oodles of input from Jane. But if she's off resting from helping us all out and doesn't see this right away, look for her posts, on assets and trusts and medicare and disability and veteran's aid and ... gosh, all things financial.
I agree you need to talk with an Elder Care Attorney pronto. You need to protect the assests for both of you as best you can. Work through the various scenarios - (he dies and you are left with....., you die....what happens to the assets..... he lives 10 years.... will you have enough to live on after he goes.....). You also need to think about anything that he is the sole owner of or the beneficiary on. Do some searches on this website and you will learn a lot of questions that you need to ask about. Also consider protecting the assets from any "mistakes" he might make - those mistakes could cost you a lot.
My DH doesn't have anything that he is the sole owner or beneficiary. I have always taken care of our money so I don't see my DH making any mistakes. He carried a credit card for years and never used it, finally he just left it in a drawer in his bureau. I pay the bills, save whatever we can, take care of the car for oil changes etc. If you come right down to it I take care of EVERYTHING. Oh! he does empty the dishwasher, takes out the trash and runs the vacuum and dusts. I do the bathrooms and kitchen.
I did get the name and address of an Elder Attorney that isn't too far away from where we live. I will call next week and make an appointment. I have a doctor's appointment on Wednesday with a follow up the next week. I will post when I find out what she has to say. Thanks for the advice from both of you.
Been trying to think about what Jane has said. There are ways to protect many of your assets if things are done right. Search for "annuity", I think annuities are the key to protecting as much as you can, so you have something left for yourself. Two threads that pop up for that search:
"Need Opinion on wills,etc."
and
"Divorcing your AD spouse - A way to keep assets?"
I find it helps to have some advance ideas, before I talk with an attorney, to help me figure out what the hey the attorney is talking about...
We already have 2 annuities. We also have some Long Term Care insurance. I need info basically on savings and checking accounts. I assume Life Insurance is not considered for care for Alz patients. I have a savings and checking account with my name first. It isn't as much as our joint accounts but again I assume that can't be touched.
Check Jane's posts (per above). The rules are complicated, but Jane explains them quite clearly. Your ability to protect your assets will depend on how much you have, what type they are, whether you can set up a trust long enough before your husband needs really expensive care to satisfy Medicare requirements, and so on and so forth. After you've distributed assets per certain guidelines, if you then put the remainder INTO the right kind of annuity, even that will be protected.
Jean 21, First let me answer one or two questions that you have asked. Are you speaking of Medicaid when you say cannot be touched saving your assets. In the event that you are here are some answers for you. In regard to your checking and savings in your name only YES, all assets of both husband and wife are considered belonging to both parties when applying for Medicaid Long term care.
Yes, Life Insurance cash value is considered countable for Medicaid purposes
Annunities if either of them are in your husbands name then the income from the annunity will be required to be paid to the Nursing Home for his care.
Never assume anything when it comes to Medicaid. Medicaid does not even honor a pre-nup agreement, the funds in a pre-nup are counted. Also with Annunities it is only a special Medicaid allowed Annunity they they do not touch and it has to be set up according to Medicaid guidelines.
all this being said, there are many ways you can protect most if not all of your assets it is just the legal avenues you have to cross to do so.
First thing you must do is get a durable power of attorney, get a health care power of attorney, get a living will, and I would also get a generic form drawn up for Hipaa privacy law to carry with you in the event that your husband can no longer sign for you to get medical information. All places should honor the durable power of attorney only but some places are not aware of this and want the Hipaa waiver form.
According to the State you live in I can give you more information, just ask.
I already have the DPOA for financial and medical, also a living will. We live in South Carolina and there is an Elder Attorney not too far away from where we live. I was planning on calling for an appointment next week. I assume she would be able to do the Hipaa form. If there is anything else you think I need just let me know. I have copied your post on the annuity.
Jean21, make sure the Elder Law Attorney you go to is Medicaid Certified. As for the annunity that would come when and if you place your husband and have to apply for Medicaid, not before, it is part of the spend down that they allow a spouse. In South Carolina they are not as liberal with the amount of assets they will allow you to keep as most other States are. South Carolina will only allow $66,480 to be protected for the community spouse where most States will allow up to $104,000. But on the otherhand, South Carolina will allow the community spouse a monthly income allowance of $2,610 and if your own income is not this much they will allow it to be taken from your husbands income in order to meet this set amount.. South Carolina does not go beyond probate when going for the Estate Recovery so with the Life Insurance the only thing they will count is the face value, they go after nothing that is not in the probate estate. Meaning nothing that goes to a beneficiary. They do permit the Actuarially sound annunity that I told you about, that is something they allow you to do as a spend down for assets beyond the $66,480. They will allow the home up to $500,000 in value and 750,000 if the community spouse lives in the home.
I hope this helps some. Most of the things I have told you about will not come into play unless you start to apply for Medicaid. Be careful when you go to the Elder Law Attorney, this early in the process, many of them will want to immediatley get everything in your name, (and that is ok, it is just that you may not outlive your husband, he is not yet in a NH and may never be since you have long term care.) You have to make sure he is also protected.
In My own case, my husband is still here at home with me. I did not take him out of my will because if I left everything to our daughter right now, suppose she were to die, then everything would go into her estate, nothing left to care for my husband with. I made my husband either POD at the bank or beneficiary on everything. IF AND WHEN he goes into a Nursing Home will be the time either I or our daughter with POA can change the beneficiary. I have to know he is protected right now, who is to say that I may not die before him. We never know. A transfer can be made to each other, spouse to spouse, and the lookback rule does not come into play. There is no transfer penalty spouse to spouse, for this reason you can get everything in your name right before placement if you wish. One more thing that I would do and that is get the HOME INTO YOUR NAME. If it is still in joint names then if your husband dies in a NH Medicaid would take his half up to the amount they had paid for his care.
I know most people would not agree with me on this, and that is ok, but I know for a fact when you go to the Attorney he will want to make a new will for you, and get everything in your name, good and well but be sure your husband is protected. he is not dead yet.
I started to make a statment regarding trusts. As far as a trust goes if you set up a trust it has to be ir-revocable and be done within a 5 year lookback. If you have any control on how the funds can be distributed and the trust is not irrevocable then they will count the trust and all assets within the trust.
When I said that I had left my husband beneficiary or POD, a lot of people would say they would not want an Alzheimer patient left with funds to take care of, but you have to remember our daughter is POA for my husband if I die so she would be the one handling everything for him, it is just that this way he is more protected. There is no absolute fool proof way to cover everything but I have done my best to protect him in all the ways that can be.
Thanks Jane for all your help. I am begining to think that unless your LO passes before going into a NH you could end up with nothing. Not a nice thought at all. It seems like there should be some safeguards for a spouse who could just a easily end up on welfare!
How does one transfer a house to the "community" spouse if the ill spouse can't sign paperwork? At this point my husband might still be able to sign paperwork, or maybe not. He can sign his name but he isn't as capable of understanding what is going on as he was in January when I did the legal paperwork I understood: wills, patient advocacy and durable Power of Attorney.
At this point I might have to wait to see if he will need a nursing home. If it turns out to be Hospice instead Medicare and his insurance ought to cover most, if not all, of it. The house is free and clear so it holds most of our assets.
Jean21, No you are missing my point Jean21, I said that if you have to go on Medicaid they allow a State of SC resident 66,480,and then if you will note I said that you can say the other part of your assets by the spend down method, one of those methods is the Actuarially Sound Annunity. You can put the rest of the assets over the $66,480 into an annunity that is Actuarially Sound. This would not be done until you are ready to apply for Medicaid. It is allowable for a spouse and gives you income for life but it has to be set up a certain way. For someone not familiar with the way to do this an Elder Law attorney would help you with this. Also there are other ways that you can save the assets above the $66,480 that they allow so don't feel it is a lost cost. You can save most all of the assets and if they house is put into your name you can save all of the assets, just be sure that any transfers you make are just to you and no one else. They do not count assets transferred spouse to spouse.
Starling, the way to get the house in your name will be with the Durable Power Attorney. Don't worry about this until you know you are ready to apply for Medicaid, then would be the time. Do it BEFORE applying.
Hi again, You can tell from my mis-spelling of words, my mind was going faster than my fingers. It is not a lost CAUSE. The reason you would want to wait about doing the Actuarially Sound annunity that is allowed by Medicaid is that Medicaid has to be named the Beneficiary in the second spot after a spouse, for the amount they have paid for care. If the spouse is still living (meaning the community spouse) The annunity is set up in a way that the principal amount has to be withdrawn in the life time of the community spouse. If the community spouse dies before drawing all of the annuniy out then of course Medicaid would get their part. This is only if anything is left after the community spouse dies. If I were doing a Medicaid Annunity the first thing I would do would be have it pay the most each year that the Insurance company would allow that way I would be sure I had drawn all the principal back to myself and my estate.
The Annunities that I am speaking of are the way to save assets above and beyond other things that you need for spend down. This is a way to give income for the life of the community spouse, keeping all assets and not having to spend down in a wasteful way.
Jean 21, also I guess I keep thinking that you already know some things. In addition to the 66,480, and the home, they also allow the community spouse the car, no matter what the value, any land that actually joins the home place etc. There are many non-countable things they allow before ever getting to the $66,480, this is over and beyond.
You will find they are very generous with the community spouse.
The only thing I would say would be the income. They will allow the community spouse any amount of their own income but if their own income falls below the guideline I gave you they will make up the difference with the income of the NH spouse. I will stop for now, don't want to just confuse you. Be be of good cheer. You will be able to save most if not all of your assets..
Just one more comment. The thing that I worry most about is not what Medicaid might or might not take, I know with the proper legal avenues taken I can save everything. What is the most for me to worry about is this and I would say most of you also. Even after saving all the assets you still loose the income from your spouse social security, and or Pension. Most people do not think of that. Even though Medicaid allows you a certain monthly income from that, once the NH spouse dies and you are left on your own, having to start drawing on your assets so early in life long before you planned to makes it not a pretty picture. We saved, have anything we want or need, do not need the interest income from our savings at all and never would if this had not happened. BUT
Jane, thank you. I took it for granted that it was ALREADY too late. Now I know that I need to see the attorney BEFORE I actually sign Medicaid paperwork.
Not a problem. I've actually already done everything else you suggested.
Starling, one more thing on the house, As far as Medicaid taking your husband's part after his death, that will only come in to play if you have not already transferred the home to you and also if for some reason you do not transfer the home to you then they place a lein and will not bother the home until it is sold as long as you are still living.
Well, Folks, I have taken some big steps in the past few days. First I made an appointment to talk with an admittance director at a nursing home near our home, planning to visit several others as time permits. Secondly, I made an appointment to talk with an elder law attorney. These are both about 2 weeks out because a friend who works in the field is going with me to hold my hand, ask questions, take notes, whatever I need done. Now I'm in the process of completing the 20+ page notebook of questions for the attorney so I have all my ducks in a row before the clock begins ticking in his office and the fee for services follows.
Jane, you probably do not know it but you have been a huge help in encouraging me to get this done or at least begin asking questions. Thank you so very much. Others have also told me to get off my procrastation bench and get it done. Thanks to them too.
New to this board, and so glad to find it and particularly the medicaid info. My husband is mid-stage, fairly willing still to sign things. I have the DPA, etc, the house has been transferred into my name, and I have an appointment with an elder law attorney next week. I'm 72; he's 83. Our daughter, 40 and working at a comfortable but low-pay job, lives with us. (our two sons are long gone and self-sufficient) I would be able to live, I think, on the income from my own pension and SS, but I want to be sure to protect as much as possible for HER, not just for me. We've also put ca. $20,000 into a 529 for our grand daughter, consistently contributing a couple of thousand a year to it over the last nine years. How can we protect that for her, since I know it's vulnerable?
sthetford, I am glad if I helped in any way. I may not be to far way from doing what you are doing now but you can bet I will be ready for the Elder Law Attorney. I know what to ask and I know if they are guiding me wrong.
Please share with us what the attorney tells you, we can all benefit if you will.
Jane, your input is invaluable to many of us. its not so easy in our case i gave up on medicaide a while back. DH's millionplus home is separate property in tx and i have pondered MANY times using DPOA to transfer into my name but with 3 greedy grown kids in the wings, its just too much to mess with -legally i could do it but then the monies i could use from the home sale could buy a much needed smaller home and put the rest in a separate account to pay for DH lifetime care. but the catch is in tx the 'money trail' of separate cash sale of home into another home would still leave me to sell at some point of my chosing after hes gone and i would STILL have split with his kids 50/50 per his will. if i am right the separate monies FOLLOW any purchases..in any case i may do this anywayif things get to where he needs specialized pricey care. i also have a vested living in the house as community spouse too and his will states i can live in it as long as i want, so if he would die first,i could still here til i chose to sell and split. so even with all of the other financials mostly in place and my half protected, this white elephant home is a pain as i would rather downsize but dont want all the hassles of complicated legalities etc...
divvi, with a million dollar plus house if you applied for Medicaid assistance you would only be able to keep the home up to a value of $700,000. With the new DRA rule that is the most a home can be valued at, and only $500,000 if a spouse is not living there. So the million dollar plus house would be a problem for you.
I have not read all the threads so I am not remember what stage your husband is in.
You would not have to split with the children if you transferred the home to your name as the title would be in your name and no longer controlled by his will.
I am not very tax savy but according to Federal Income Tax rules, you are each allowed $250,000 on sale of property not even to be re-invested into another home. That gives you $500,000 if it were to be sold while still in both names.
It is best to think of your survival and years left to live rather than worry about the greedy children. You have to think about you and how you will be after this is over. If you can live without the home then well and good but if not best think about you and your husband.
Why do you say it is complicated legalities etc. If you use a POA to transfer the home into your name it will be doing so in his best interest if the reason is in order to get State aid to help with NH care for him. The problem is the home is worth too much so I would really talk to a tax advisor and think about getting it sold and downsizing right now so your future will be protected as well, then any monies you want to use for his care you would have and also the money you did not use for his care could be protected if you apply for Medicaid.
Get that house sold. It will be a thorn in your side unless you have enough other assets to care for him. Jane
divvi, I am sorry, I happened to remember that if the spouse is living in the home the value of the home is not counted at all, so you would be able to keep the home. Just remember though, I still would transfer to your name. You will not have to divide it with the kids because it will not be in the will.
Would your children fight this? They might have a legal recourse if they can prove it was not done in your husband's best interest. I would contact an attorney and find out what you can do in regard to this. If you can get it into your name then the will will no longer cover it.
Jane, thank you for your input. i understand what you say about transfer of home to my name then that would offset the will. interesting but i can tell you right now they would have me in court pronto regardless of the outcome to contest the will and or my changing anythig to my name at this point. if we had done this while husbnd was able to do on his own then it would be a moot question. his daughter WORKS for the probate judge here. ha, i wouldnt have much chance -unless i prove 'biased'.:) i think while we live here its considered a homestead and free from threat of lawsuits so since all our other real estates are in a family LP this was a way for him to keep it safe and still separate since he had before we married. i guess at this point and advise on my end, if i have to sell i would do it and downsize and put the extra money specifically for DH care say some trust -they would just have to suck it up and IF they got anything then it would be after all is said and done. i have a separate annunity for me for my future use. yes,the taxable capital gains limits are good to 500k not sure what it is if he should die and then i sold...i will take your advice and get with my CPA and get some answers. thanks Jane bunches. Divvi