with so many of us having to make decisions of admitting our spouses lately, i think it important to post what i found out about contracts and liabilities. of course i must add i have no legal authority or titles that offer anything more than my own opinion and what i have read myself.
each nursing home has their own specific contract. they are not generic. its ALWAYS a wise decision to have an atty look over a copy of an admissions contract PRIOR/ to signing it. there are alot of factors that could favor the nh and not us.
i know having to place a spouse in a hurry can make paperwork cumbersome but please dont sign without reading everything and asking about anything you have concerns over. many NH have provisions that state 'third party' responsibilitys and our 'arbitration' stipulations that may not be in our benefit.
if you are signing for your spouse make SURE you sign not individually but as the fiduciary relationship you are using to admit them. like if you are POA sign as that notyour own name. it can mean you are signing as responsible party for any unpaid debts and or any not covered by medicare or medicaide. this is why bringing it to any atty to read and who can suggest changes is a good idea. they can tell you what to sign and how and what not to sign or modify prior to signing.
as far as i can find there are only 6 federal law binding grounds for a transfer or discharge from a nursing home--------
1/necessary for the residents needs and residents needs cant be met. 2/residents health has improved sufficiently that nursing home is no longer needed. 3/Safety of others in the facility is endangered by the resident 4/health of others is endangered by the resident 5/non payment after reasonable and apropriate notice 6facility ceases to operate
keep in mind you sign these papers and assuming medicaide and or medicare will be approved and if they arent you may be held liable for debts accrued and it can be big numbers.
i would not consider signing an admissions contract without having it looked over and how to go about signing it. divvi
Thank you for that valuable information. There was a lot that I never would have thought about. When the time comes, I will make sure my lawyer goes over the contract with a fine tooth comb. Even if there is more than what you researched, it gives a place to start and a lot to think about. Thank you! Thank you!
divvi, Thanks for the information. I am afraid the part where signing as POA would really do us no good as a spouse. In most States a Spouse is legally responsible for each other regarding payment of health care. I would still only sign as POA but I am not so sure it will help us with the NH issues.
Another thing to note. If we do not sign then they will not be admitted or they will be assigned a guardian to take over. They have us on this.
Interesting that Divvi would bring this up because I've been thinking of asking her about my specific case. I signed a contract with a Care Facility in Sept. 2008 agreeing to pay a month in advance ($6000.00) by cheque. I also paid a security deposit. The Care Facility, on their part, were to provide (among other things) nursing care. Their rates went up as his care level went from Intermediate Care Level 1 to Intermediate Care Level 2. Over the past year, as his needs increased, the nursing care provided was substandard, and I have photos and documentation to back this claim. I have met and corresponded with the top brass who run the Care facility, the College of Registered Nurses, the City Health Dept., our lawyer etc. describing the problems and saying that if there wasn't an improvement, I would forced to transfer my husband. Fast-forward to June 21 of this year, 2010, when a bed became available at a safer facility. I took it and immediately notified the first facility in writing of the transfer on June 28. I would not sign the letter they gave me at that time that stated I would be financially responsible for the month of July. I sent an email saying that as Co-committee, I could not sign unilaterally and that the Co-committee was in Europe until the end of July. I gave then his Vancouver office address and asked them to send copies of any further correspondence to him. I put a stop payment on the pre-authorized bank payment of July 1, 2010. I sent an email to the Co-committee and to the lawyer for the Committees telling them about the stop payment and forwarded a copy of the email to the facility. I said I would be abide by any decision they made. The lawyer said that it all depends on what is in the contract. Angry phone call from the Care Facility today, and I told them that the Co-committee would be in touch with them when he got back. Comments, Divvi and Jane please.
mary i think you should read the contract and give your atty a copy to see if you have any timeframe for notifications of changes. maybe they require 30days or whatever. i would certainly dispute any deposits i left sinc eyou were forced to leave due to inadequate care provided. i would tell them you are going to sue them over months of lost care they didnt provide your DH! i woulndt pay them anything until you review your contracts.
jane i have been reading about 'doctrines of necessaries' laws which supposedly obligate us as spouses for necessites ie- which includes health care bills for our spouses. not so fast----- there are several states that are having lots of lawsuits over this very issue. florida, mississipt, hawaii, several i read about. florida is seemingly has had various law cases involving this very topic of medical faciilities trying to get payment from spouses who DID NOT guarantee payment for spousal care. very interesting, things may be changing in laws about this. north dakota has said one spouse is not obligated to pay medical bills without express consent. i saved the article if you care to read it. various states and lawsuits and outcomes from supreme courts and state courts. so it may not be so far fetched to sign as POA in some states. precedent is being made in other states that may impact new cases. joint and several liability is something that is causing lots of concerns so i would still sign on admission that i sign for my spouse not myself individually just in case. lots of changes in law especially in this specific topic...
divvi, Yes, if you will notice in my post I said " I would still sign as POA." but I just wanted folks to know that it could still be an issue and not help us in a lot of States. I would never ever sign unless I used the POA, always have known to do that.
And also, if someone does not sign as in our case where our husband is incompetent, then they also have us because a guardian would be assigned and we would not like that. Ours is a special situation. The Nursing Home will not accept them unless they have a signature.
Thank you for bringing this issue up. Search and tell us all you can. It is most valuable information
if you google' ABROGATING DOCTRINE OF NECESSARIES in FLORIDA the future of spousal liabilities for necessary expenses' (i am no good at linking sites sorry) you can read this article which is the one i was referring to. its a rather lengthy tedious case law review but has to do with this very question of us being forced to pay for medical costs for our spouses. its seeming there is a wide variety of case law now in recent yrs with regards to this and many have been overturned in higher courts and not in favor of the medical community. i found it very interesting that some states have done away with this law and are now taking it to higher courts for decision making. i think its very interesting for those of you in Florida especially. basically if you do not consent to pay for specific medical costs there may be issues for the creditors to come after you. if you notice most all these cases refer to medical entities trying to collect from spouses for medical debts. i know what you are saying jane the trick is get them admitted THEN sign all the dots or dont! haha.. stall and deflect?? at least if you sign as fiduciary and not personally you may have a fighting chance if worse comes to shove. anyway, i hope this sheds some light. things seem to be changing so maybe there is hope. divvi
be sure you do have a durable power of attorney to start with before signing, one that carries all the way through incompetency. Then as Vickie says there are several ways.
I always sign Jane Doe as Attorney-in-fact for Jim Doe
The only time I was ask to sign John Doe/Jan Doe attorney in fact was, when we bought our condo...you can image how many times I signed. Every other time I just sign Joe Doe/by Jane Doe POA.
When I had POA for my mother, I just signed her name/my name, POA. It was always accepted. Do you mean it won't be the same if I have to sign as POA for my husband?
i only suggest that you ask an atty in your state how to sign the poa for legal reasons. we can never be too careful. i was told if you dont put the principals name-- BY you as attorney in fact you could possibly be held personally accountable in some instances if its not done properly. and or challenged by some entity. better be safe than sorry and ask so you know whats required in your state Legally- most never get challenged but it can happen.
remember each state can vary too as do their laws. divvi
Just a note to all. I had legal work done today and I made a point to ask the Attorney about how the signature should be, of course it could be different in another State as divvi has stated. Our Attorney said JOHN JOE BY JANE DOE AS ATTORNEY-IN-FACT. He said always use the words ATTORNEY-in-FACT AND TO ALWAYS HAVE THE LOVED ONES NAME FIRST.
He also told me His mother was diagnosed with Alzheimer for 22 years, lived in a NH for 13 of those years. He said as far as he knew it was the longest diagnosis on record.
Dazed, yes it is just the way you are suppose to sign when you use the POA. Go up a few posts and read divvi's post on the signature and how to sign. It is the correct way.