I finally got an appointment with an elder care lawyer in our area and had to answer a lot of questions over the phone. I received a rather lengthy questionaire to fill out prior to the first meeting and it is extensive and I wonder if it is too extensive. Aside from wanting to know how much in retirement pay we get between us, there are questions about our house and how much it is worth, how many savings or checkings and investments do we have, what is our personal property,,do we have land, cars, boats, burial plots..( I am surprised I was not asked how much my wedding ring cost). They want a list of all assets and to know if I stand to inherit anything from anyone. they asked if we have given any gifts of money to anyone in the last 5 years..next I suppose they want our tax return.. I just feel some o this is beyond reasonable. What kind of info have others been asked and I wonder if I should seek out a different lawyer. I live in CA. My appt is a week from this Thursday so any help or suggestions would be appreciated.
Hi Mimi, I think the questionaire is pretty standard practice. I didn't receive one in advance but went prepared with all the info. The attorneys job is to preserve as much of your assets as possible. That's why all the questions. If something is forgotten or left out it could cost you in the future. I agree it seems intrusive but the more he knows about your financial posistion the better plan he can create for you. Add privacy to the list of things AZ takes from us. Good luck. cs
Since the purpose of seeing an Elderlaw attorney is to protect your assets, the lawyer needs to know everything you have. (cs and I posted at the same time)
you will lneed to supply all this info if not to this atty to the next. i would be leary of any atty who didnt ask for this info. its what they will need to provide protection to your assets when if you need to apply for medicaide in the future. at the first meeting you should discuss his qualifications and CERTIFICATIONS which is a must . and then decide if you like him and want to proceed to retain his services. you dont have to supply this info before you decide to hire him. divvi
I can understand the financial part of the questions but why is it necessary to know how many kids and grandkids there are, and their status, and general health and where they live? And my mom's maiden name and DH mother's maiden name? Are those part of the general questions? I did send a copy of this to my brother in Houston who is a lawyer..estate etc but he is not lic in CA..or I would consider having him do the work. It is all new and scary.
I believe they asked all the same questions they asked my Mother and I. Like others have said, they are standard questions. Protecting your assets is their job, that is what you will be paying them to do. I'd like to know the outcome of your consulation, so see if it was similiar to ours, I'm in CA also
Mimi, reason for the kids name, mother maiden name etc. Medicaid will ask the name of your children, the mother maiden name etc. Maiden name is such that they research to see if you have inherited anything and if so what you did with in within the last 5 years, also kids name is such to see if gifts have been made to them. They will check these names on transfers that have been made, anything with checks written to these names will stand out.
The Attorney asks these questions ahead of time to save time during the interview.
First elder law attorney we saw wanted all this info. He's 45' away; so through the district Agency of Aging, I noted an attorney in our town listed as "elder law" certified; so I saw him a few months ago. Will see him again when he returns from vacation, BUT, he doesn't seem so thorough; so may switch back to first one. We have all the usual powers of attorney, living wills, etc., and a family revocable trust as well as one for me from years ago when I received an inheritance. I'm researching medicaid requirements and think the more thorough (and in my case more expensive) might be better.
As for me, when my parents died, I inherited some funds from them and this has grown some. I also inherited some funds from an aunt and uncle which is is a money market and bonds. Unlike my cousins who received a gift from our aunt and uncle, I put mine away. Since my DH is nearly 20 years older than I am, I just felt that if he " flew the scene" before I did, and my income took a deep drop I would need to invest and save for the future. What I have from my family DH wants nothing to do with as he feels it should be there to take care of me not him. I hope his income from his retired military pay, plus his SS and his VA disability will be enough to take care of his needs..I might end up needing what is for my thinner years to repair the house etc. WE are not spendthrifts..very conservative and pay all bills on time. I hate the intrusion into our private life because of this disease..yeah get used to it..but I can still hate it.
Oh, I forgot to mention, I sent this email with all the data that this lawyer needs to see if it is beyond any reasonable requirement or not. I'll let you know what he says when I hear back.
NO word from my brother yet. I sent an email to the attorney who did our trust and mentioned the fact that I have been urged to contact an elder care attorney. I hastened to tell him that we have always had confidence in him but I did ask if within his estate planning skills he did work with issues related to elder care matters and that our local Alz Assn sent a list of elder care attorneys in our county. Our attorney has been fighting multiple myleloma and has had a successful bone marrow transplant but has to remain away from the public for a period of time. I will be interested to know how he is doing. If he has had a set back I have little choice but to get a different attorney. I can't tread water forever. Yet I was put off by the new one wanting to know my mom's and DHs mothers maiden names. It made me feel like I was facing and IRS audit.
Mimi - if you think back,, when we do most anything legal they always ask for maiden names: bank accounts, retirement, medical, and the list goes on. I think it is a way to confirm who you are if there is a question, plus as Jane said for medicaid to trace your finances.
Another example of invasion: I finally had a response to my resume after 1 1/2 years. They emailed it to me and they wanted information that is none of their business like maiden name, do I have health insurance, who is the provider, auto insurance and provider, bank information, etc. I will not give my SS# to anyone unless they are hiring me. This HR company (doing the screening for another company) wanted to do a credit, criminal and sounds like medical background check on me plus the drug testing. I already told the lady I would not submit to that unless I were hired on condition I pass it. she didn't like that. I emailed back explaining I have nothing to hide, but do not feel it is an employers business before even hiring me about all the personal stuff. If an employer can't hire me for my abilities, integrity and job references, the I do not want to work for such. Old Fashion, out of the times, but that is me.
Point: our lives are being invaded from every angle.
The questions I would ask you are, Is this the attorney you have decided to use? Did you make that decision before being asked all of those questions? I have had a few occasions to require a lawyer and my first appointment was to interview THEM. If you fully intended to retain this attorney then he did you a favor. It is a lot cheaper to fill out a questionnaire at home than it is to pay him $300 and hour to ask you the same questions.
Well that was my thought..to interview her. But this fee plus all this info she asks for is prior to her doing anything on my behalf. Then should I decide to use her and go forward with her services then the 250.00 would be applied to the fees. The questions Charlotte asked in her para above are similar to what the lawyer is asking minus the drug test. As things stand now, we own our house, no mortgage, have no debts other than our normal bills and taxes when due.
Mimi =you can always fill it out, let the attorney see it and if you decide not to use this attorney ask for you info back. I see no reason to let him/her keep the info if you are not going to use them. Also, it will be info you will probably need in the future, so I would even keep a copy. From what Jane said, medicaid will ask the same stuff so you would have already done much of the work.
Mimi--It may be that only one visit to the attorney may be necessary, and if so, he will need all your info. As you said, your husband has income from 3 sources, and that may be enough to pay for his care. Your inheritances may so far exceed what Medicaid would allow you to keep that it may not be practical to "spend down". The combination of those things may not make Medicaid the best route for you to take; if so, you will have checked out your options and will know how to proceed for the future.
The reason you weren't asked about your engagement ring's value is that it is personal property and Medicaid won't care. Everything else you were asked about are things the attorney will need to know to do the work he needs to do.
Now, you can put it all together and take it with you and not hand it over until after you have decided you are willing to work with him/her. If you are uncomfortable with the fact that you are being asked for the information in advance that is what I suggest you do. If you are uncomfortable with the fact that an attorney who is working for you and where you are protected from abuse from him by law, that is another problem. If he is going to do the job that you will be paying him to do, he needs to know the answers to all of those questions.
There are laws in some states that require that you mention some blood relatives in your wills even if you aren't going to give them anything. That protects the estate by proving that you didn't make a mistake. To do that the attorney needs to know their names.
An elder law attorney who is trying to protect assets for the use of the well spouse so the care of the sick spouse doesn't bankrupt the couple has to know what the assets are. I notice that he did NOT ask for any of the property that Medicaid does not count. Like I said, that is why he didn't ask about your engagement ring or other personal jewelry, or your furniture or clothes or coin collections or... I know that you used the ring example to show how intrusive he was being ,in your opinion, but actually what you proved was that he was only asking about things he needed to know about and not about things that truly are not his business.
Thank you so much everyone for the insights and rationale for all the questions, I did send this questionaire to my brother in Houston who is an estate, bank, corporate lawyer with a huge practice..pretty smart feller he is. He is not LIC in CA but is in several other states. Anyway..he said this:
"This form is designed to give the lawyer enough information to plan your estate, as well as deal with issues regarding elder law.If you do not want him/her to advise on estate planning, then there is no reason to provide all the financial information."
So I'll go ahead and fill it all out as best as I can. I have a feeling that with his income from his 3 sources, I will be able to manage to pay for his care without medicaid. He inherited nothing from his parents as was his request as he has brothers and sisters who needed help more. I am glad now that he did that so we are not obligated on that front to help with the family home repairs though I know he is the kind of man who would chip in anyway.
I 'll let everyone know how things go with this. I feel this has been and is an important discussion as how often we are seeing Welcome >>>>>>>> and I am sure new members of our AD family have the same fears, worries and concerns..it is overwhelming. Hugs to all..and I'll be back "con el favor de Dios" as mi mama would say.
Just got a message from my brother,,,he checked out this elder care lawyer and said she is well qualified for what she does..somehow he has access to check out other lawyers...so I will be in good hands.
From my own experience...ongoing..answer everything they want to know, even what brand of toilet tissue you use!! Keep records of everything! And, if Social Services gets involved (as in Medicaid qualification), be prepared to tell them what COLOR the toilet paper you buy is.....for the past five years. And, provide reciepts for such.
I should be getting something in the mail soon from the elder care lawyer..worried about it too..
Had a discussion in our alz group today and one lovely lady was discussing the DNR issue and advance directives. She mentioned her spouse, who was formerly quite the gentleman, has become verbally abusive and totally disagreeable about everything I guess. And her one child who is an adult of 50 something wanted to be the what's the word..trustee or something on the DNR but has got something causing a pushpull situation..and is torn about what to do.
It was suggested she contact her elder care lawyer about this for advice on how to manage and she was advised not to put this decision off for far into the future hoping the child she thinks is the smartest to manage this while this person gets her issues put to bed so to speak espECIALLY as the spouse is somewhat disagreeable. And that if he ever physically abuses her she cannot wait to see about placement and she needs to get this business in order.
It is always so sad to see a new member join the group. You can see the fear in their eyes..Our group is a good one,like this site...No one talks outside the group about the people by name at all..kind of a hippa like thing..but examples of cases are ok as long as the privacy of the people is guarded.
This lady, judging from what she did say is not going to the same elder lawyer I am.
I had that meeting with the elder care attorney today..a 2.5 hour meeting. She went through our bank statements, ins, trust, ( I have a substantial inheritance that needs protection from the clutches of the state), all the medical, VA assistance etc and the bottom line is we make too much income. ( without me my DH would be able to qualify after a time). So the recommendation is to consult a Family Law attorney to see what might be able to be done other than Divorce, which in the summation,which was suggested we consider. I have to sit down and read again and again this letter. I thought I would be getting the POA and DPOA but not yet guess that is in the realm of the family law attorney. Right now I am pretty depressed about all of this. DH would not understand this divorce idea and I know would not like it.I don't like it but I don't want to be broke at the end of this journey either. There are suggestions about selling the house or putting my trust in the hands of someone I would trust..don't have anyone I would trust that way. So I am still stuck at the starting gate.
Geez Mimi...doesn't sound like it went to well for you. We were done in less then 2 weeks and all papers signed. I don't understand why you need to consult another attorney and have to spend more money for the second attorney. Seems like an Elder attorney should know all the angles of protection for your money and qualifying for VA/Medical. All i had to give our elder attorney was the balance in our 3 checking accounts. Did your attorney say why you couldn't put your assets in a trust. That is what we did. Our attorney did 3 trusts since we both had private funds....then our joint money and our home we live in now was put in a trust and nothing can be paid out of that trust until we both die because it is also designated as a trust for our medical care if an when we need it. Are you sure this elder attorney is a CERTIFIED elder attorney? At the same time, our attorney gave us instructions how to set up our cash in an annunity that would pay out on a monthly basis so that cash (annunity) cannot be counted toward qualifying for VA or medical.
Also, I am wondering why your attorney didn't give you the names of 3 or 4 people to interview that are "trustees". Our attorney said they have list of "trustees" some work for banks, some work for attorneys, but we knew who we trusted and wanted to be our trustee. Of course, everything could be different in the state where you live. Good luck, because it is a real pain the the butt getting this stuff all together.
We executed our trust in 1991 and laws have changed since then. To make matters worse, the attorney who did out trust i 1991 was a good lawyer. When he retired he referred his clients to a financial planning company which had among the members an attorney who did the legal work for trusts. As bad luck would have it, this lawyer was subsequently disbarred but we were never informed. In 2000 I inherited funds from my parents and an aunt and uncle and careful investing has seen it grow to about a million dollars so I am the one who is wealthy now..In CA there is no such thing as sole and separate property so what is mine falls into the whole pot to include my interest in a condo in TX in which I share ownership at the rate of 42.5 % interest. And the state can go after my percent.My elder care attorney is rated 5 on the Martindale -Hubbard rating scale for attorneys and she has never had any complaints leveled against her. She went in great deep detail what Medical and the VA will cover but we are too well off. So in order for me to protect what came from my family the first means of consideration is divorce in order to clear my accounts and his ( everything is in both our names to keep things out of probate)..it is a trust..our house, our cars, everything is in trust already. So the need for a family law attorney is to see what other methods may be available other than divorce such as maybe legal separation or other ways to clear the way for him to have assisted living or LTC..right now it would cost more than what he alone brings in, tapping into my retired pay and ultimately drain my portfilo.. She had some of the other usual miserable methods such as selling your house, putting others on the deed so you don't soley own it, same with my portfoilio. This whole thing stinks. I really thought it would have been more simply managed and maybe it would have IF we didnt already have a trust. Seems trusts may keep things out of probate but not away from this bankrupt state of CA.
Well...Mimi...I do hope you can get done what you want done, but at least you really don't have to worry too much about paying for care. I know you really don't want to have to do that, but you may have to. Sorry, there is such a thing as "sole" property in Calif. I was awarded the home in my previous marriage and it was titled....."sole property of _____________unmarried woman. Since I never co-mingled this property with my present husband it is still titled that way and my attorney says that it would stand. Also, my present husband's IRA is his sole property. I have no way of getting my hands on his IRA it is in his name only. It sounds like your attorney is probably well versed in what can and cannot be done. But, it is a lot of money and assets to "hide" in order to qualify for assistance.
That is an issue too...my trust or inheritance from my parents is NOT comingled but because it reads _____trust.....it looks like he put something into in and he did not. I read through more of the 30 pages...the lawyer went into great detail to spell out how medical works and VA would work...it is not bright. Then there were several options about the house itself..and DH gifting all his assets to me and my getting him off all banking documents etc..I still don't know how that escapes the clutches of medicaid..I guess that is where the family lawyer comes in as the estate lawyer said there may also be areas within family law which is out of her area of expertise...It is a pretty compete and all encompassing document...The lawyer said a case like ours does not come along that often..and complicating things are the step kids who are all adults..she does not recommend gifting anything that direction as I am nearly 20 years younger than the hubby it would not be in my best interest.. I think I'll burn a copy of this document and overnight mail it to my brother who is a Texas attorney and see what he thinks of this. Making things even more complicated is my older brother who has two trusts set up by our parents because he is disabled..they did something in which these trusts carry others names..like one has his and my name on it and the goal if for the brother to be the recepient of all of it but adding my name was some idea to keep it away from any law suits..well now the long arm of the greedy state seems to be able to reach that too IF I am listed as a beneficiary on something like that. Sometimes ignorance is bliss. I hate this f*&^%$ disease and how it completely destroys our lives in so many ways and is made worse by the state that does not help out..nothing like ending up broke. And the VA..here is a guy whose military pay, disability and SS is too much to qualify for VA never mind the fact that he served 33 years and is totally disabled due to agent orange..kick em to the curb.
Our eldercare attorney said there's such a thing as a "single premium immediate annuity" (I think that's what he called it) that one can roll $ into when it comes to spend down so you don't have to spend $ to improve house, etc., etc., but can put it in the annuity to save it. Pays 3% interest at this time. Gov't accepts this "now" as an option. Said he's not a fan of annuities, but in cases of spend down necessity, it's a way to get by w/o "spending" but saving. Am hoping to keep hb home and not apply for medicaid, but one never knows....Our house is only 6 yrs old, and we built it to be accessible; so I don't need a new roof or any modifications; so wouldn't want to spend $ unnecessarily on it.
Zibby...yes our attorney told us my DH should roll over his IRA funds that are in a regular annuity (get interest every quarter and no withdrawals) to an annuity where there is withdrawal of funds on a regular basis and then those funds will not be counted towards qualifying.
MIMI: Do you know the amount of monthly income the spouse can have if DH has to in a facility under VA or medical?? The attorney told me...but I forgot what it is. Mimi the way I understood it from our attorney, gifting to me and getting husband off the bank accounts, etc. it is qualifying him for medical or VA....all other assets went into trust designated for his/my care if need be and cannot be distributed until we both or dead.
Thanks everyone for posting.... I have to get hubby up for a doctor appt so can't post now...but there are topics here worth jotting down and bringing up. I read the 30 pages again last night and the trust needs a redo since the lawyer who did the first ammendment in 2002 was disbarred in 1999 and misrepresented himself. Life just stinks sometimes.
Mimi, I am in the same boat as you are - substantial inheritance from parents/relatives (never co-mingled), joint property owner with sibling on parents summer home and the home I grew up in, my own IRA. DH has his own IRA, LTC and we are joint on the house. The state we live in is a community property state and as we''ve been told by our Eldder Law attorney, whatever assets I have (even those that are not comingled or are in partnership with sibling) go towards his qualification for Medicaid, which of course he will not qualify for because there are too many assets. That means more than likely I will be broke when this journey is over and I'm furious about it. The atty recommended a special needs trust for both of us (I have a disability) but as I understand that trust, you can only use for health related expenses. He recommended another trust but with that trust you can only use the interest, not the principal and the remainder goes to the heirs when yo die. I saw a divorce atty as well and was advised that the only way to keep some of my assets (remember they add spouses assets and then divide by 2 which left me with less than I have in my name now) was to divorce my husband. Because it would be considered Medicaid fraud to divorce and live in same house and continue to be caregiver/decision maker for DH, I've decided at this point not to because I believe no one will have his best interest at heart if there's an appointed guardian. BIL had AD, was put into an NH and a court appointed guardian managed his assets. In 18 months the guardian spent almost $500K (the entire estate) so that BIL would qualify for Medicaid and BIL died 18 months after diagnosis. I am still searching for viable alternatives.
Our elder care attorney and a legal consultant at a caregivers' conference I attended said the neither the farm I inherited nor income from it would be countable assets for Medicaid consideration. I put the farm in my personal trust when I received it and hbs name isn't on it. I live in IN. Interesting, the discrepancies.
there are so many viable loopholes in anything we do and laws constantly changing nothing is safe anymore. not to mention every state has their own interpretation of the laws which complicates things even more. seems no way out if the govt wants their money they will find a way. divvi
Zibby that is part of my problem now...my inheritance was put in the trust ..our trust not one just for me and we and I hope this can be undone especially since the lawyer that did this was, unknown to us, disbarred at the time. Just got back from the doctor with HD..protime ok, doppler ultrasound???? and tomorrow I take his holter monitor back..this crap just never ends.
We went to see an Elder Law attorney last week and I am so glad we did. I do not have to worry about what we can or can't do when it comes time for Medicaid. It is expensive and they do ask you a lot of questions. It will be worth the time and money since Medicaid laws keep changing.
I still have work to do with our elder care attorney. I have a 30 page letter in which she explained the Medicaid and VA Aid and Assistance plans, neither of which we can use since we " make too much income". She also provided the suggestion we consider divorce..wants me to contact a family law attorney to see if there are any other methods to conserve my inheritance and qualify my dh should the need arise. I had an appt with the family law attorney but had to canc it today to put out some other snakes..but will get an appointment. I do not favor divorce but we shall see. There has to be something to be done. I tried calling to see if dh could qualify for any kind of LTC other than those listed and because of his pre existing conditions the answer is no. I talked to one man today who suggested investing in a program which would allow for funds to grow for additional medical coverage and it might be something to consider but I need to know more first. I still need the POA but our elder care lawyer needs to know what the family law attorney thinks is the best way to go with some of the family issues... There is a big part of me that senses that I'll be paying out of pocket and nursing home care around our area is about 10K a month. I'll have to get with my financial advisor and tell him we need to make gobs of $$$$ to keep me and him afloat..
Mimi--Our financial advisor told me about annuities where funds can be used for long term care (perhaps with no tax consequences?). I don't have the details but why don't you check this out with your financial person to see how they work. If you have to pay out of pocket, it might be a good thing to consider.
Yes, Marilyn, I am going to do that, I spoke to the sec for our elder attorney and was advised not to do anything until I speak to our lawyer as she is familiar with this type of avenue of approach to help with this sort of thing. We have to be careful how we work it into the plan. But in the meantime I do intend to ask our financial advisor about this as he is someone who has made my portfolio grow despite the econ downturn and may have some good insight as well. DH is all on board to do whatever needs done to protect ME from going broke.
Life should not be this complicated.We have an appt. next week with elder law attorney and this thread has been very helpful,but a little scary. I have always handled all finances so am familar with all info I think the lawyer needs. Our son wants to go with us but I think I prefer he not go,he and I have different ideas about things.Since we live in an older mobile home and would not have room to care for my husband I'd like to take a lot of our savings and build a new home with room for live-in help.We do own our property,4 acres,a building permit would not be a problem.Our son says he doesn't think we should build but would hate to see "daddy's hard money go to a nursin home"Our daughter says we saved money to be well taken care of.Our son is very wealthy,Our daughter has nothing,guess that explains the difference opinions.
yhouniey: You might want to consider seeing an Elder Attorney. I was very impressed with the one we found and how he has basically protected all of our assets through 3 different trusts and told us what to do with my dh's IRA so it is also protected. Instead of having the IRA in an annuity that does not pay any funds on a monthly or quarterly basis we need to convert it to an annuity that pays monthly. Bottom line is we now qualify for medicaid and well as VA if and when my dh has to go to a nursing home. Of course, I realize different people have different goals with their assets. My major concern was that my we would qualify for medicaid/VA and that if my dh should die first I would be financially sound. This the attorney did for us. I would also like to keep my husband at home as long as possible but I must be realistic about that and do what is best not only for him but also for me. Sometimes I think we forget that something could happen to us before it happens to the one we are taking care of....this is an important thing to remember when making financial decisions.
I have been reading all this and taking it in. Next year when my fil's house sells, I have trying to figure out what to do with the money. First will be to pay off the motorhome and credit cards, then either buy a small house or rent. I also have been thinking about investing the balance in an annuity that will pay a monthly payment. I have no idea what the house is worth - worth more to developers than as just house - BIL is handling all that and won't tell us anything even though all the kids names are on the deed.
Who would I talk to about how the taxes go on it? I will need to find out if we have to worry about capital gains or how the money from it is handled.
You might want to see the elder care attorney alone first..put it all out there...what your son's thoughts are and what your daughter thinks. Your lawyer should be able to advise you on how to manage your assets, and what you would need to do to qualify for medicaid or va aid. If the attorney thinks it is a good idea for the kids to have input the lawyer will tell you.
Charlotte, I got this info off the web re: Estate Tax. According to the IRS literature, an estate tax filing need only be made if the value of an estate exceeds the following amounts:
2005: First $1,500,000 in assets 2006-2008: First $2,000,000 in assets 2009: First $3,500,000 in assets
In addition, the maximum estate tax rate applied to the amounts in excess of these figures are as follows:
That takes care of fed estate taxes; check on state taxes due. When my brother passed, we paid no fed taxes, but did pay state taxes and lawyer's fees (latter wern't cheap), but all of this came from the estate. Of course, if there isn't enough $ in the estate.....
FYI...tomorrow I have another appt with our eldercare lawyer to review the trust. I have no idea how much this is going to cost or how complicated it is likely to be. I think we are going to get my inherited assets pulled out and put in it's own trust separate from our trust. That is the way it should have been done but as I said our trust was handled by an attorney who ended up disbarred..so we are about correcting mistakes.
Our POA and DOPA and Advance Directives were done first. With my DHs medical issues that was most important. As to the Medical..we won't qualify.. Our monthly income is too high and besides, it seems futile when in the end the state comes back to grab anything left so as to be reimbursed...