There is something that has been bothering me for a quite a long time on this site, and some recent posts about losing control and screaming at our loved ones only reinforced it.
Yes, caregiving is very demanding, and stresses us to—and past—our limits. But sometimes it seems that instead of "supporting" each other on this site, we are "enabling" each other. There is a big difference. This site should not be about rubber-stamping each other's bad behavior or poor decisions. And make no mistake, uncontrolled screaming, especially to the point of causing fear in our loved ones, is bad behavior. It bothers me tremendously to read responses like "you are a good caregiver" and "you did nothing wrong". That is just not true. I called Adult Protective Services in my state, and they confirmed that this "absolutely" (their word, not mine) constitutes abuse. By condoning such behavior, we cheapen what we do as caregivers. Our support should not extend to telling each other that no matter what we do, it is good caregiving. We should encourage each other to a higher standard than that. (Was the reason that there was so much support because we don't want anyone to say anything to us when our own behavior crosses the line?)
Frankly, I am appalled at the people, including Joan, who supported this behavior. ("You're human. We all lose our tempers at one time or another. Check out this blog on my last tantrum.") How can you support behavior like that? For generations the excuses men have used as justification for their spousal abuse were things like "stress" and "overwork" and "she made me do it". Those reasons have long since stopped being accepted as valid, yet here we evidently have agreement by spousal caregivers that they do justify abusive behavior toward someone with dementia. Frankly, it scares me to see so many caregivers agree that this is acceptable, even normal, caregiver behavior. If we now accept verbal abuse as being a natural part of caregiving, can physical abuse be far behind?
This web site has provided a wonderful outlet for many, many people, including me. I don't know what I would have done without it. But to condone abusive behavior and call it "support" is wrong. And no, not every caregiver screams. I've been a caregiver for 6 1/2 years, so I have sufficient experience to speak for at least this one caregiver. And if I ever do find myself having this kind of behavior, I would immediately look for a safe, calm environment in which to place my husband. He deserves it.
I have to address this. This is a gray area. I don't know what you told that caseworker had happened.
I've had abusive bosses who scared the living daylight out of me by being verbally abusive. There was one who was tall enough that he registered as taller than me (I'm 5'8" so that means over 6 ft tall) and who I thought was going to hit me at one point. And he screamed at me when no one else was around that time, so there was no one to witness what was going on. He had a reputation for being one scary man, so if there had been a witness he probably would have gotten fired.
That is abusive. It was loud. It was intentional. It happened on a regular basis. And he had no conscious idea that what he was doing was wrong.
I also was the victim of bullies as a small and medium sized child. In both cases the person (a male) who did it bullied me chronically in situations where I could not respond, and where I took it for granted that no adult would care. When I was 11 it turned out I was wrong when I fell apart after almost a year of daily abuse. The teacher in that room did care and did do something to protect me.
Loosing it on one occasion is none of those things. In the original thread, the writer lost it. And she was immediately sorry it had happened and was looking for ways to not have it happen again. Now it is possible Jan that you have never found yourself raising your voice. Mostly I also don't do that. But recently I had to get my husband to stop yelling at me because it was dangerous. I did raise my voice mostly to get his attention. And I think that at some point every parent and every caregiver raises their voices.
It isn't abusive unless it happens a lot and unless it happens because the person doing it is trying to scare the person they are yelling at and/or bully them. Chronic yelling is abusive. Losing it verbally once in a while and being shocked you lost it, is not abusive. It is human.
Jan, NO ONE knows what the future holds...........................................never say never. No one here has ever condoned abuse and never will. End of Discussion.
I think what you're identifying as support is, in fact, NOT support of the yelling behavior, but rather support of the caregiver who recognizes and regrets her error and hopes to do better.
I agree - occasionally loosing it and letting out how you are feeling is not abuse, it is loosing control. If a caregiver constantly yells at her spouse (or parent, sibling,etc.), cursing or berating them, then that is abuse. There is a frustration that builds up for a number a reason, most often because they do not understand or comprehend and we get exhausted from saying it over and over. When raising our voice aka yelling it is more trying to get it into their brain or to understand (which we all know is fruitless), is not abuse. It is very common for couples (healthy couples) to get frustrated and one or both yelling trying to get their point made .
On the other hand growing up abused and verbally abusing my children until I got help, I know how she feels. When you loose control a part of you is standing on the outside watching yourself and not believing how you are behaving. She did the right thing by posting here. Doing so she was able to get prospective and to get rid of the guilt she felt. I believe that guilt could facilitate future loss of control, but now she is aware and hopefully will come here before it gets to the boiling point.
As for placing them, that is all too often not an option. Most caregivers do not have the means financially or otherwise to place. And if you seek help from professionals you are often prosecuted, thrown in jail, your spouse put in any facility available and all suffer instead of finding the help you need. IMO
Starling, I agree with you. Jan, I don't know your situation, or if your husband has ever had rants. I don't think this is the place to sit in judgement of others who are weary and just trying to keep their heads above water. The person to whom you refer was making a "confession" and was regretful. I think you are mistaking condoning of the act for support for the caregiver. I'll bet there are few among us who have not "lost it" at some point or another. Either you are a saint, or your husband is docile, like Marsh's wife. People here are lonely, afraid, sad, sometimes depressed, coping with financial burdens they did not expect, isolated, frustrated, being bombarded by complaints from their spouse, etc.
I have a very long fuse. I am a quiet controlled person. But I will be the 1st to admit I was astonished at myself the 1st time I screamed BACK. I just wanted the screaming to end. I would usually go outside, take a walk around the block. However, there are many caregivers who don't have that outlet, because they can't leave their spouse at home alone. Please, give careful consideration when admonishing the bravest people on earth who are facing so much. If it is a constant behaviour, yes, there is reason for concern such as yours. But an isolated incidence here & there over years of caretaking. That is a holier than thou attitude. And I don't think you needed confirmation from adult protective services. What did you expect them to say? Have they walked in these people's shoes? All of us make mistakes, and hopefully learn from them. If we are not allowed to express our mistakes here, then where else? Yes, I believe you have confused condoning of behavior with support which is very much needed.
I agree with the others. I don't believe that what happened in the case discussed on this site was abuse. I think the person involved came to the right place to discuss what happened. She knew that what she did was wrong, and what she needed was support, that she was not an evil person because she lost control ONE TIME.
I think, as a caregiver for a very long time, it is not uncommon to be pushed to the edge and sometimes fall over because of the frustration, exhaustion, etc. we face. We know it it's generally not productive, upsettinng to our LOs, and not good care--in that instant. We can support the caregiver who reports the event, feels guilty and seeks to do better. That is a positive response--recognising and seeking to correct--prevent further episodes.
However, as caregivers, IMO, we need to temper our support with promoting correcting efforts. It is human. It does not make one a bad caregiver to have lost it. But we also have to look at why it happened and do something about that. Lose it once--it's too bad but fixable. Lose it repeatedly, it's abuse. The potential is there and we need to be aware of that.
I hear where you are coming from Jan. Agree with your premise re our love ones should be placed if caring for them becomes abusive in any way. We are legally and morally responsible for reporting elder abuse as we would child abuse.
How I read and interpreted the post in question was that a warm, loving person was suffering from deep remorse because she had lost her temper. I do not call that, an isolated event abuse! Our support, our unwavering support, is for her to realize that she was not abusive but human. The responses I would hope helped her to realize she was not alone and also offered many hints for reducing her stress to prevent further outbursts.
We only cheapen what we do as caregivers if we do not get in touch with our feelings, share our concerns to keep our loved ones safe. A truly abusive person would not have vented on this forum as she would not have seen anything wrong in what she was doing. Am pleased to hear that you have never lost your temper! You need to share with us how you have maintained your composure for over 6 years. While I have been doing this for about the same amount of time I have raised my voice when there were safety issues, will continue to do so if other techniques do not work. As with a child who reaches the end of a cliff or is going for a hot stove...there is no time for reasoning but a sharp cry of warning is very effective. I have also become frustrated and when tired may not be as able to use diversion or other tactics to decompress a situation.
I guess we could debate for hours on what is caregiver stress, what is caregiving if it is not protecting our loved ones from all dangers, and what constitutes abuse. While your post Jan has helped to have this discussion, I hope it does not deter one person from using this forum as way to reach out to other understanding peers in a time of need. While I can only speak for myself, I know that I speak for others in saying that no one condones abuse! For you to surmise that is what we were doing is truly not understanding what some of us are going through.
As someone who was abused as a child, I believe many of us do have the potential to become abusers, even those of us whose friends Iand therapists) tell us we are good people. I do think it is human to lose it, and that we should be encouraged to forgive ourselves. But I also think that the question of when our behavior might begin to cross the line to abuse is a good one to ask here. What is hard for us to take in is that even good people might cross that line; it isn't something that is only done by "them"--people who don't care.
I haven't really yelled at my DH yet but I imagine there will come a time when I will lose it. I don't see how it can be avoided when you are stretched beyond your limit. I know for me to accept it I would probably have to be unconcious! I get irritated now repeating and repeating everything I say, does that mean I shouldn't speak to DH at all? I don't think that will happen!!!!!
I cant even believe my eyes that there is a topic with this name Condoning Abuse.
Jan i have re-read your 5/9/08 post under your topic of ARE WE ALLOWED TO ASK THIS QUESTION. after reading your experiences for those last 6yrs as a caregiver with regards to loss of personal freedom, financial ruin, social contacts, and just about all enjoyment in life-add to that according to that post an AD 'abusive yelling screaming spouse' and wondering how to go about accepting that role as a caregiver .,
i also find it quite extraordinary that you are able to post that you have never lost your cool or ranted because of AD caregivers stress. from your own posts you admit to super depressive states and inablity to take antidepressants that send you further into depression.
i would hope that you would be able to share how after all you deal with are you able to stay so cool and collected for so many years under this extreme duress. i am sure i am not alone in seeking your wisdom.
All this makes me really wonder whether I can vent on this site. I am one of the members who expressed support for the poster who lost control and yelled at their AD spouse. It never crossed my mind to consider that abuse. Most everyone has a bad day, has a "straw that broke the camel's back" moment, loses control and raises their voice. I thought this was the place to come, vent and get support. And yes, if that has never happened in 6 1/2 years, give me the benefit of your wisdom as well.
Inquiring minds want to know. May be your solutions will help some of us who are so stressed like this old tired hurting lady who has the responsibility for everything that is done in this household. I may yell once in awhile but I will take the best care I can of him as long as I can.
It is important to keep in mind that "venting" does not always mean every person will agree with you. I feel it is important to receive differing opinions, and Jan K has the same right as everyone else to express her opinion. I have assured her that if I or this website's advisors suspected abuse, we would not condone it, and would direct the person involved to the appropriate resources.
The problem is that I didn't feel like she was "venting" but more like she was judging and yes, she does have the right to express her opinion. I feel like it was hurtful to a lot of good caretakers and I really tried not to make any comments on the subject but in the end I opened my big mouth. Sorry, Jan K if I hurt your feelings and I promise no more comments on this subject.
I think Jan must have misinterpreted something, but I feel like we've explained adequately. I hate to see us gang up. And I surely don't think anyone should feel inhibited about posting truthfully because of one misunderstanding.
We are all different and we all may react differently to the same situation. When we post here we should be able to post about anything that is disturbing to us at that moment. We may get replies that we don't agree with and that's okay. I take what I can use for ME and let the other go by the wayside.
Divvi, I've got to give you credit for finding that posting of jan K's from 2008. that took some mighty fine detective work. As for an occasional raising of the voice, yelling or stomping around out of frustration, who, who has been married and /or raised children, hasn't at some time gotten angry.... not abusive, just fed up. that person should be canonized. In fact, most caretakers use extraordinary patience with their loved one, more than they probably ever did in the years of marriage. It's not an easy road to travel, this caretaking, but we chose to travel it as best we can. Please don't criticize us when we need to talk about the difficult road that it is.
I think this thread is a good example of what this site is here for. A place to bring our hurts, worries, and concerns. Sometimes misunderstandings can happen, feeling get huirt--but never intentionally. Communicating by written word, clearly, to convey strong emotions and concerns can be very challenging because we don't get the voice inflections, body language, nd other input that help convey our total meaning.
I think it has done us good to have this thread to discuss a valid concern. That being, that we need to be aware that a caregiver will, under enough duress, lose their cool and blow--but we also need to be aware that while that is a human behavior, not to be condemned outright, it is also a behavior that could go out of control. Theer is nothing wrong in being supportive of the caregiver for being human but also being supportive to ask if they have some respite set up, or suggest they work on that. Certainly, suggesting a way to defuse is supportive.
Being aware that losing it has the possibility of becoming something more serious, doesn't mean it will. It does mean we have to keep our eyes open to the possibility and work to prevent repeats.
This is a hot topic, prone to disagreements and Jan should say what she feels. I am puzzled why Jan would even call APS with only a few of the details. Surely she didn't see or hear everything prior to or following the " yelling" event. I believe Jan knew the answer she would get before she made the call. It would be lovely to know how to keep your composure under the extreme stress caregivers experience every day , but as human beings who have feelings, needs and wants of our own being put on the back burner or neglected alltogether frustrations are heightened and people slip. APS knows that quite well. I used to work for them. Caregiver burn out is a large aspect of many cases. Respite is often too fleeting or to short. APS workers experience it too. I do not believe that even Jan is immune to burnout and I wonder how far along in the process her LO is. Sometimes it is too easy to make someone else look bad in order to make yourself feel good. Let us not fall into that trap. Let us keep supporting and venting and laughing and crying together without judgement. If the honesty of our posts has to be censored then this great site loses some of its ability to nurture and support each of us. That is enough from my big mouth. Love to all.
What a good discussion! I gave my opinion about this on another thread so I won't go into all of it again. But, I certainly was surprised to see Jan K's opinion at the beginning of this one. I think we all know what constitutes abuse and we all know, because of being caregivers, that it is impossible to not lose it once in a while. I am amazed that anyone thinks because someone might "yell" at their loved one that that is abuse!