alot of discussion about leaving our spouse in vehicles and/or not with running engines. some research into this topic has raised some concerns for me, and i think it could be important for us as caregivers. while i am in TX almost ALL states have encompassing similiar laws in place, its seeming the only difference are amount of fines and type of violation involved.
Illegal In Texas- for any operator-- may not leave vehicle unattended without 1- stopping the engine 2=locking the ignition 3-removing key from ignition 4-setting parking brake effectively, 5- if standing on a grade turning the wheels to the curb or side of the highway.
class C misdemeanor and or various fines. ranging 25dol-1,000 depending on the state and laws -
- a person who leaves a motor vehicle with engine running there shall be a person ABLE TO CONROL it and brake shall be set in a manner that prevents the vehicle from moving -
i dont know if the law would consider our demented spouses as they would a child being left unattended in a vehicle but if they would and 'possible could due to mental issues', and putting a vehicle in danger, then the fines are outrageous AND you could be held for civil damages and negligence if endangerment occurs.
something to certainly think about?
i know we have times when we need to get out for errands but this brings a new light to the topic.
Thanks for bringing this up, divvi. I will leave DH in the car only to go inside to pick up a prescription, when necessary. But I cut the engine, take my key, set the emergency brake and lock the door. Now, he can unlock it, but never has tried when I am gone. I do believe they would consider this the same as leaving a child in the car though.
I have been dealing with this for years, and at first, during the hot summer, I used to leave the engine running with the A/C on (and the car locked of course) while I went into a store for no more than about 10 minutes. Then one time, when I got back to the car, it was fairly hot inside, and I could tell by the control settings, that DW had messed with them, to the extent that the A/C was off. So now, I have to take her with me, even if for only 5 minutes. In cool weather, I leave her with the windows open an inch, and if really cold, the windows up and a car blanket for her (of course she would have a coat on anyway).
I'm often tempted to leave John for a few minutes to run in the store but a vision of him getting out of the car and getting lost or hurt always stops me. cs
cs, I failed to mention that DW is not mobile at all, and cannot get or even fall out of the car. She can pull the handle to open the door, but can't open it, and can't lift her legs to get out. I suppose there is the possibility she could, after undoing the seat belt, lean over enough to maybe roll out, but I even doubt that, because the door would have to be pushed out, and the weaker she gets over time, the less likely that would ever happen.
So far, I do not have this problem. When Jim is with me, he is unable to get out of the car due to his inability to walk. He is also lucid enough to know he should wait for me. He will not always remember what I've run in to do but, that's ok. I try to take him in with me, just because he doesn't get out often and enjoys the diversion of even the pharmacy.
I have started having my DH ride in the back seat because he opened the door twice while the car was moving. In the back seat I use the child safety locks so he can't open the door. I also have to put his seat belt on and take it off for him. (It's a real pain to get him into and out of the back seat, but I have no choice.) I have never left him alone in the car, and would, under no circumstances do so in the summer. However, I have been thinking I may do it in the winter for a few minutes at a time, putting a blanket around him while I was gone. I don't know if this would be considered illegal, as long as the car was turned off and the doors locked.
Think of it this way - Would you leave a toddler in the car alone even for a few minutes? Many of our spouses have the reasoning ability of a 2 year old.
I find if my husband has something to do in the car, he's fine. Today, I went into a store and he was in the car opening the mail. He was 'still at it' when I got back 5 minutes later. Other times, he has had to "hold his little dog" and they sit dutifully and watch people walking by...always for very short periods of time..never more than ten minutes.
Sometime, we have to also judge our own husbands..they are not all two year olds...some are "six". Which is worse??-----grin!)
I will add that my husband cannot get in or out of the car without my help..and a LOT of it. Two arms have to be pulled up and out...after I've physically lifted his feet and turned his body around in the seat. I truly do not believe he can get out by himself...but I haven't let him try. So, we NEVER say never. Wasn't it Lois's wheelchair bound husband who got up and tried to escape through two separate doors at the Rehab facility?? We NEVER say "He'll never do that!" Lesson number ONE.
I almost never leave him alone in the car, but have in rare cases. I always have the key with me, and a window open when appropriate. Basically, he isn't at the 2 year old stage at this point. More like the 10 year old stage or early teens. And the last time I left him he was still doing 2 hour walks on his own and coming home almost every day.
I'm talking about this because our LOs are at different stages. And some of them are more competent than others. If there is a state law that says that you can't leave a car parked with a person in it (which is what I think the Texas law says) that is one thing. Reality for most of us is another.
Just figured out a solution to all my problems. I'm going to take DH with me and leave him in the parked car, walk down the street and anonymously call the cops. Then "they" can take him and give him to a spouse that will take better care of him! <grin>
Sounds like a good plan to me or we could tell them to go play in traffic. Now before some of you good souls fuss at me I am only kidding. Love you, Weejun
NEVER NEVER NEVER leave a disabled or helpless person in a car alone for any length of time. Most states have laws that state that a domestic pet cannot be left unattended in a car. Do they need to spell it out for us about our loved ones??? come on folks, lets just close our eyes and try to imagine what could happen....b/c sooner or later it will..... Not only are we leaving to their own mischevious actions we are also leaving them at the mercy of the public and we all know how cruel some people can be. Go to the drive-thru window or get them out of the car..
SHELLSEEKER my husband is not helpless. He gets into and out of cars all the time and doesn't need help. I am the one with the handicapped placard.
That was my point. It is possible there really is a law that says that you can't sit in a parked car in Texas. That is one thing. But my husband sitting in the parking lot at the bank (the last time he decided not to come in with me) is another.
Now, if he had reached the point where he couldn't get out of the car on his own, that would be something else again. If it was very hot or very cold I'd make him come with me. I take the key with me so he won't try to drive. And he isn't at the wandering stage yet either.
Starling, I agree that everyone can judge this best for themselves. We each know our own LO and can use common sense to do the best thing. It's not always possible to avoid all risks.
I do NOT believe it is against the law for an ordinary person to sit in a parked car in Texas. UNLESS they are incapable of getting out in case of a fire, etc.
I understand about the concern re: handicapped, small children, pets, etc. There is that law. But, if a perfectly healthy person choses not to go into the store, they should be able to wait in the car.
Nancy, that really was my point. Little kids tied into a car seat is one thing. A handicapped person who needs help getting into or out of a car is one thing. A pet who is locked into a car is also that same one thing. I was pretty sure that the Texas law didn't cover most of our LOs.
We may be getting to the point where he will have to come with me, but the last time he waited in the car at the bank he had been on a two hour walk alone that same day. And his doctor knew about the walks and was OK with it. He isn't taking those walks these days so I might make other decisions. But he is early stage 6 with no real physical stage 6 symptoms. He isn't late stage 6 or stage 7.
I think we all need to remember that some of the caregivers here are dealing with stage 2, 3 and 4. Their LOs are still driving and working.
i believe the suggestion was we were speaking of leaving a Demented, disabled or handicapped person in an unattented vehicle, not just ANY competent able person -it said if the engine was RUNNING there needed to be a person ABLE to control said vehicle to prevent it from moving-
and we compare our 'incapable' or demented' spouses to that of a child left in a vehicle and having the possibility of having to face negligence charges IF something happened while they were alone. we dont know if the law considers them as they would a child or handicapped person,, my guess is yes because they are mentally handicapped - and mentally handicap can come in varying degrees..
whether they are legally considered 'demented' would be something you can discuss with the dr - divvi
I have been leaving my dw in many unattended vehicles all by herself....but somehow, the owners of the vehicles always call me and request that I come pick her up///
Well, my husband is demented, but I've never left the car running or the keys in the car. There are stages to dementia.
This is a lot like the driving thread. My husband drove until mid-stage 5. When I first brought up his not driving anymore to his neurologist their initial response was to send him to our local rehabilitation hospital for testing. Then they saw him themselves and evaluated him and realized that I was right. It was time to stop driving NOW. Testing would be a waste of time and money. They immediately told me they were reporting him to the DMV.
I'm giving the whole story for a reason. The last time they had seen him, about 6 months before, driving had come up and it was OK with them that he continue for a while. They knew he had driven to the appointment and were OK with it. I know there are people who think that all dementia patients should immediately stop driving, but if you get diagnosed at stage 3 or 4, that doesn't really make sense. But at mid- to late-stage 5, it is time for driving to stop.
The same thing is true about waiting in the car for 10 or 15 minutes. It really is OK to leave a "child" in a car if the "child" is actually a teenager. After all, a teenager knows how to disable the child proof locks in the back seat. The same thing is true for someone with mild to moderate dementia. Just as there is a point when you can safely leave a child in the car, there is a time when you can't leave a demented person in the car safely. My husband may, very well, be at that point now, but he wasn't there 3 months ago.
I've bided my time in making a comment because of the hard feelings expressed-but here goes: Our LOs are not predictable in their actions. What they can do today they may not be able to do tomorrow. Who can tell when they will get into danger when some strange idea gets into their heads and they decide to do something they never did before?
Bluedaze, I know you're right, but I just think we can't avoid every risk all the time.
I don't leave my DH in the car, he wouldn't have the patience for it at this stage, but I MIGHT do it sometime in the future if that is the best way to handle a certain situation. And I DO leave him standing outside a shop with our bikes, if that's what he wants to do. I know there is a (tiny) chance he could be taken advantage of or wander away: he has NEVER wandered but I know that theoretically he could begin at any moment. I know that if anything happened I would feel guilty. But I offset this against the difficulty of ever getting into a shop (he usually refuses to come along into a shop except one supermarket, and hates to stay home alone) and make what seems to me to be the best choice at the moment. I let him cycle on ahead of me and hope he will do as I ask and wait for me at crossroads. Not much I can do about this except refuse to go bicycling entirely -- and we would both hate that. I do notice that in cases where he is uncertain of the route, he waits for me so I can go ahead of him. But here too there is certainly a risk involved. If I wanted to avoid risk altogether I'd have to choose for a sedentary life for both of us starting right now. No, thanks. It's a choice I may someday regret but even if something did happen I'd have to offset it against all the days of cycling that we are still enjoying. The fact that I'm going on about it indicates of course that I AM bothered about the risk. But I choose it and consider carefully.
Jeannette, during the 18 or so months when my husband was going out on his long 2 hour walks alone, with the doctor's blessing, I knew there was the possibility that he might not come back one day. So I know where you are and how you feel. Because it was where I was and how I felt.
Truly there was no way to stop him from walking. And no rational excuse to stop him since his doctor was OK with it. And there was no way I could go with him. I'm partially disabled and cannot stand or walk for more than half an hour. In Pennsylvania you can't get an absentee ballot unless you are very sick. I've seen people in their 80s with walkers on line for 2 hours so they can vote. But they gave me one for last year's election.
He has now stopped walking. I did distract him a few times during the last month. Things have changed. If distraction doesn't work there still is no way to stop him, but I'd call the police to help me find him after an hour instead of the three hours that I would have used a couple of months ago. Things have changed.
We really all do know what our LOs can and can't do. We need to be careful, and alert. But we also need some common sense.
Divvi and blue, you stated what I was trying to state. they are emotionally and mentally handicapped whether we want to face that or not. After all , why are we here in this forum discussing "normal" things that are no longer "normal"? Their judgement is severly hampered. My fears go much further than knocking the transmission into drive and the car crashing into the front of the grocer store or the bank. My fear is directed at how the public in general would react to them if they did get out of the car, or start screaming that they are trapped in the car, etc. All of our loves one that have dementia are at OUR mercy. WE are the ones who have to make the hard decisions and sometimes the decisions about what is appropriate or safe for that moment and that situation. I stand by the common sense approach which is NEVER NEVER leave a disabled or helpless person alone in a car for any period of time. After all their state of mind can change in the time it takes to run an errand. Blast away but I stand by this. All of our loved ones are helpless at any given time of the day. Love all you.
SHELLSEEKER I'd like to point out that my husband has an event driven dementia. One year after the event he was still working. During that year he traveled, by air, across the country more than once and bought the house we now live in WITHOUT ME. The following year he traveled to Australia WITHOUT ME. He wasn't diagnosed for 3 years after the event.
He was not helpless. At this point the general public thinks there is nothing wrong with my husband. The waitress at the diner who see him every day and make a fuss over us most days do not realize there is anything wrong with him. And they see ME doing all of the ordering and all of the paying. If anything they think he is hard of hearing, which is also true.
There are caregivers either posting or lurking here who are dealing with very early dementia symptoms. Most of those LOs are also NOT HELPLESS. Telling them to treat their LOs as if they were helpless is not useful, kind or reasonable.
Why are they here? Because they need to learn. Yes, there is a time when you can't leave them alone anymore, in the house or in the car, and it is likely my husband has just passed that border. He was diagnosed in May 2007. There are caregivers here who leave their husbands alone for 9 or 10 hours a day while they are at work. Not everyone here is dealing with a stage 6 or stage 7 dementia.
Common sense is making decisions based on where your own LO is at any particular time. Trying to treat someone with early stage dementia as if they were on their deathbed is not realistic and probably is counterproductive. It also will cause any aggression to get a lot worse than it otherwise would be, so it is also NOT SAFE.