Hello, peeps. I've spent a lot of time over the last few days reading here. A LOT of time:) I searched "anger" and found 5 discussions and read them. I didn't find one that addressed this issue though. (and I'm not saying one doesn't exist, just that I didn't find it, so my apologies if this has been covered here before)
The problem with anger I'm having is that DW WILL NOT go to a doctor, period. I've been trying to get her to do this for over two years now. I've pleaded, cajoled, raged, pleaded again and at every turn the bottom line has seemed to be that she forgets these conversations by the next day. (my first post here from a few days ago explains much of her background so I won't rehash all that)
I know this anger I'm feeling will never help anything and finding this site is already helping me to mitigate it. I was just wondering what others experienced in the regards to the 'early days' of their spouses' problems. Is this a common emotion when there is a denial of a problem existing from the person who is acting so "differently"? (I almost typed "crazy" :))
Please remember, I fully realize that without an evaluation there is a very good possibility that DW could have any number of things wrong that are not FTD or AD related that could easily be treated. All I know is I've been angry about not having any closure as to why she's changed so much over the last two to three years and she is the one who has not allowed for any explanations to be considered.
Anyone else gone through this, or going through it? This particular type of anger? How did you handle it?
There is a thread on denial - I forget the name for it. I even think I read recently where someone threatened their spouse with divorce or the doctor to get them there. Other suggestions are to make the appointment, don't tell and just show up there. That might not be too good, but you could make it, stay it is for you and say she needs to be there to talk with the doctor about your strange thoughts!!
I still would like you see you try to get her to the homeopathic or naturopathic doctor and do some blood work.
Tell us more about what your doctor situation is. Do you have the same doctor/Personal Care Physician?? Can you drag her along to some ailment that you're going to your doctor for, or that you can pretend to be going to your doctor for, and prep the doctor ahead of time to ask leading questions of her as well? Do you have any family member you can involve in a conspiracy to get her to someone?
Charlotte, I remember reading that thread. I've done all that except for having the papers drawn up. And like the author of that post I don't think I could carry through with the threat. Far as I know somewhere inside she still loves me and I still love her.
briegull, I have two homeopathic doctors. Both are GP-MDs. Her's is a GP of the mainstream persuasion. She has only seen him a couple of times over the last ten years, and they were work related through the vet clinic she is employed. Her closest family is 7-8 hours away by car. Mine are a couple hours. I'm sure it could be easier if we weren't all so scattered about and we had some children in common. She has one son from another marriage and I have two from another.
As has been said many times, 'white' lies are often necessary for their own safety. This may be a case where you really need to get 'crafty' to do what is best for her. Wouldn't it be great if it turned out to be hormonal? Remember the horror stories of what they use to do to women (drugs, lobotomy, etc.)who we now know were having bad hormonal problems?
I understand your anger. It's probably not anger, just a maximized frustration. You've made all the logical arguments to her to see a doctor. She may have agreed to some points. When it gets down to time to go, she won't. You may find some help in the 'Reason button broken' thread. You have to think wider. Just because she says yes or no to a particular question, it does not necessarily mean that she agrees or disagrees with you. More importantly, the question and answer may not mean anything tomorrow. She has or will have, no ability to remember anything about the question tomorrow. That means that you have to stop beating yourself up, knowing that you are right, knowing that you have temporaily convinced her, only to be arbitraily shut down.
A suggestion in the 'white lie' area. Perhaps you should go to the doctor. You will need to coordinate with the doctor on your real objective. Then you can get your wife to help you get to the doctor. She could sit in the room with you, so you won't miss anything he says. The doctor might ask her some questions while she was there, you can't tell<g>. I'm 61. My wife would have been 52 tomorrow.
I hope that you can get this done and that it is something treatable. Good luck.
"can you talk to the vet at the clinic where she works? He's bound to have noticed something."
That brought a smile, the only 'he' that works there is a part timer HS kid. Two very fine female doctors though.
But, believe it or not, I have thought of doing just that in the past. Then again what if I caused her problems there, scrutiny that she might not otherwise have received? I know and respect the principal owner/doc. But there's also probably a bunch of hormonal nuances running loose in a clinic that has seven female employees.
I don't know, I'm probably asking the unanswerable here. How others dealt with this type of anger was what I was really trying to ask, not how they got their spouse to the doctor.
Anyway, I've truly appreciated all who have tolerated and offered their help to me here thus far.
I got lucky and didn't have this exact problem. Our Dx came out of tests because meds had to be changed. I wasn't looking for the kick to the teeth of "tell me about his Stroke History" followed soon after by, he has Vascular Dementia."
That said, when ever I've had to deal with the frustration of getting somehing done with a certain person's feet firmly sunk in cement, I've found the only relief really comes by staying the course, trying every means that occurs to me, until the job gets done. Fibs, interventions, misdirection, whatever works.
Talk to the principal owner/doc, alone. She may be aware and hesitant to broach the matter as long as they've had no problems. The others could very well be having snickers behind your DW's back because they see the behaviors too. Maybe, the one I said you should talk to, could set up that all employees have to bring in record of a current physical because of the medical issues they've run into, to keep liability insurance coverage. She might be willing to help because eventually your DW's behavior is going to affect her work and could affect the business.
Bout wrote: But there's also probably a bunch of hormonal nuances running loose in a clinic that has seven female employees.
Please don't say that.
Don't second guess what may happen. The vet doctor is a professional and if you approach her on a professional level, I'm sure she will talk with you. You sound like a highly intelligent person who has researched and studied so much that you may be ahead of yourself.
I have learned that I cannot bring my husband into ANY decision making process. I will PROMISE you that he would say NO anytime we have to see his doctor. We just have places to go, errands to run, and then we are THERE. The hardest thing Alzheimer's Spouses hav to learn is that their REASON BUTTON is broken and they cannot be reasoned with. Just doesn't work. Never will. BROKE. I had the hardest time of anyone on this site accepting that fact. When I did, scary as it was becaues he was the strong, arrogant, executive type who make EVERY decision....... things got lots easier around here. We're further along than you..in Stage 6..so we've been on this journey for awhile. I wish I could really help you get her to a doctor. I think her reluctance is the disease speaking. Try to think of it in the third person when she expresses these opinions.
Boutotta", ...I have another idea. Would you consider making an appointment with the "best" doctor you have, (since you have two)...and go in alone and discuss the situation. DO NOT TELL HER!!! Don't tell her anything about your visit. Alzheimer's Caregivers have a "fiblet permission card", in case you don't know. Then, the doctor could call her and say he needs to see her, and it is important... and give her two options for time. In the book "Learning To Speak Alzheimer's" it is suggested you never ask a question in such a way that they can answer yes or no. When you ask a question, give her two options. 2:00 Tuesday or 2:00 Wednesday. Today or tomorrow. Chocolate or vanilla.
My husband always responded differently to "outsiders" than to me. Part of his arrogance...and me being "his little woman" not a partner in decision-making, for way too long.
i liked briegulls suggestion that you speak with her employer and maybe get a physical to stay employed. if she wants to work she will have no alternatives. just book her physical with a neurologist not a pcp. and dont tell. once in the drs office let the dr handle it but advise him upfront why you are there and her noncompliance on all fronts. i would level with her employer, if she is not functioning up to par she could cause some liability issues for the workplace and the owners. just a thought. by the way, just my OWN thoughts, but if i was in such turmoil and under such mental duress and my DH refused a dr visit, i think i would have to make the big threat as well. lets get you evaluated and see if it is or isnt- or go the divorce exit.
it may work it may not but i did it over the driving issues, it worked for me on that one- thats another subject and a doozie as well. i wouldnt want to continue to live for years and not knowing one way or the other, as time is of essence and the more you wait the more she will decline without proper diagnosis and meds. then the options are few and its still going to be in your hands all the decisionmaking-divvi
Excellent suggestions all -- my only addition would be to stress the importance of YOU seeing the doctor first -- get the doc in the boat with you. As some here have found, not all doctors grasp the dementia correctly the first time. Since your wife will not go willingly, you don't want to take her to a doctor only to be faced with one of those that tell you it's YOUR fault and she's fine. Sometimes it happens.
Nancy B and divvi and all, the type of feedback I hoped I'd find.
Really, I guess then, when it comes to surviving this type of anger, and ordeal, one has to do what one has to do so as to "maintain". And when 'that' doesn't work one must try something else. Makes perfectly good sense when you think about it.
I'm getting there, even if I don't know where the hell "there" is.
The anger and frustration is chronic. Even after the first doctor visit, he denies he is different. Does it do any good to have any limits? I find myself wanting to say that I'm leaving if the cursing and abuse don't stop. I don't ask anything except what do you all do about safety concerns? Doors left wide open, for example. Our last fight was because I suggested he not examine his money in public. Should I just give up mentioning everything--how he acts, what he wears, what he eats. I think the depression has finally hit me.
abbygail-- A cardinal rule--PICK YOUR BATTLES. A few key limits--stand your ground. Other stuff you have to find a way to let go. Doors wide open--NO WAY. What he eats? Unless there's a significant health issue, be glad he eats. What he wears? Unless an important event, be glad he's clean and dressed.Guidance here usually can help--lay out his clothes so they're appropriate. I have found the for some behaviors, rewards and penalties work. A span of time without the cursing gets a treat. Abuse must not be tolerated--Seek help immediately--Police if physically endangered, the Dr. for med adjustments. Counting money in public--he doesn't need a whole lot. A few singles and some change. Reduce the risk. Since their reason button is broken, there is no discussing things. There is no negotiation. It's on you to figure out what is important and what to let go. For your own self preservation and peace of mind, settle in your mind a baseline for his care. That is your goal. As his behavior matches or deviates from that goal, you'll identify what needs to be addressed and what must be let go, for your own health and sanity.
I am short and because my own disability, there are areas that would seldom get cleaned. I let it bother me at first, and then I'd do stupid, endangering things trying to take care of them. Finally, I got smart. Until I could get some help with them, I took the position: If I can't see them, they aren't there. Reduced the day to day stress immensely. Same idea, different application.
Once I accepted that I could change nothing it got easier. He would always be right and therefore I would always be wrong. Rankled for a while-but got easier. It helped me detatch from husband as a life partner to just a responsibilty. Sad but true.
Yes. This is one disease where the caregiver gives up "I know MY rights!" and learns to use subterfuge and all those other sly "womanly" devices to get what we need. Except for physical abuse or danger, as Carosi says. Money? My husband sweetly apologizes all the time for not having any money on him.. he can't find his wallet! (hmmm!)
My DH carries his wallet and will always look to see how much money he has. If none, I will offer him several ones, a five and a 10. Usually he gives me back the $5 and says the $10 and the 1's are enough. I think he thinks he has more with all the ones! LOL Yes, bluedaze, the thing about him always being right was the hardest to get past.
"...detatch from husband as a life partner to just a responsibilty..."
That is a profound, but sad, statement, bluedaze. The not knowing whether that is a reality I may face with my wife in the future is at the crux of the anger I've been feeling as of late. Compared to most others here I don't have a huge problem at the moment. Right now all I can offer is my empathy, but I can sure imagine how much worse it can get. My experience here reading all these different stories has been an amazing eye opener.
Well said, carosi. And Bluedaze: I found that when I made the sad change from thinking of DH primarily as a husband, to thinking of him as a patient in my care: yes, it was sad but after that daily life was easier and not so heartbreaking. That said, it is still sometimes possible to enjoy moments of intimacy and doing things together: and I find that I treasure them more when they occur because I know (from reading what all of you are going through) that this too will pass.
Boutoutaluck - the anger and frustration you are feeling is normal. The fact that you are expressing it is a huge step towards dealing with it. This site allows you to express what you are thinking and feeling and even if you don't do it yourself, you will often find that someone else uses words that express your feelings. Things constantly change along the journey with this disease and each person with the disease is different. You can plan ahead as best you can but then the disease will take a different turn from what you planned and you are running to try and catch up.
My husband had fallen and had a concussion. After that he went downhill very rapidly. Less than a month after the concussion, he could no longer read and understand a calendar. I had known something wasn't quite right before he fell, but it was very, very noticable after he fell. I took over just about everything including making the doctor appointments and talking to the doctors. I just told him his primary doctor wanted him to see this doctor and it worked. I also did not tell him until the day of an appointment that we were going. Getting him to agree to anything was difficult, his first response was always "NO", so I just went ahead and did as I what I felt was for the best and was able to get him there because he liked to go places with me.
Bout..., we wouldn't be normal if we didn't get angry and feel anger. How we deal with the anger is a different story. Sometimes I want to strike out and have no one or no where to do it. If we don't release the feelings, then we can hurt ourselves. the stress will build up and it can be a killer, it can also harm our organs. So don't feel bad about the angry feelings but hang a punch bag in the basement or garage and use it faithfully. Yell and scream into a pillow when no one is around. Release the tention. I cry in the shower once in a while. Sometimes it is a growl more than a cry.
I was very angry with my husband before diagnosis for all the things he promised to change and then didn't. I had the thought that I would work on the marriage for a year and then give up and leave. We at least escaped the denial problems you are having because my husband's Parkinson's symptoms became obvious. When my husband was diagnosed with Lewy Body Dementia I was angry that my dreams for the next ten years of my life had been taken away. I'm still angry about having to do everything. But I'm slowly getting better at just accepting that this is the way things are now.
In the Five Stages of Grief..Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression and Acceptance - are experienced by Alzheimer Caregivers in that EXACT order. You see, what made our Spouse who they were - is dying - or has died. The differences in losing our partner suddenly in an accident or heart attack - or in slow motion -(by Alzheimer's Disease) is the difference in the way we approached THE FIVE STAGES OF GRIEF. Read them and decide where you are - and be aware as you move on down the list. I was the champion during the bargaining stage. That was my RESEARCH PHASE where I was determined to prove it reeeeeely was something else primarily..that could be cured with therapy..and the memory thing would just be a minor nuisance. Reading the posts, we can also see which people here are in the Depression stage, - and then there are those in the Acceptance Stage and in some cases, by this time - they accept their limitations and love their spouses so much that they agree to let them live in a professional care facility. I'm reminded of the story in Solomon...the woman who loved the baby the most was the one willing to let him go. Same with placement. The FIVE STAGES OF GRIEF usually last five or six years...you'll not whiz through them in a few months. Sometime, you'll go back and forth. Think about it.
Guaranteed - one will bounce around in the stages. You may not even go in the exact order. Sometimes it will be 3 steps forward, 2 steps back, then forward again. It is a journey with no definite steps. We know they will happen, but the order and when are the unknown.
Speaking of 'stages'..., I talked to 'sweet sugar' this morning. Told her of my visits here. Told her how much I'd learned here over these last several days. Told her how I was learning to come to grips with this particular type of anger I've been experiencing. Told her I loved her and would never abandoned her. Reminded her, yet again, that we'd never know anything about what was going on with her if she didn't go to a professional and at least have some kind of 'blood work' evaluated. Reminded her of all the possibilities as to what might be causing her 'out of nature' behavior over these past few years and how many could be easily resolved but that we needed know if there was a problem that was beyond our control. Didn't take 5 minutes. (always use short periods for such communications, not too much at a time?)
At the end she said, "Alright". Nothing more. A little more of my spirit just sucked right out of me because we've been through this all before many times.
Fortunately, because of this avenue here with you people, I think this is the best I've ever handled one of these 'talks'. I have a dozen things I need to do. I think I'll just take a nap instead. The air will be cooler when I wake up. I think I'll feel better then.
Thank you all for your replies to this discussion, and take care.
bout-if one thing positive is experienced out of reading here then joans website has accomplished her mission. the fact that you say you handled the 'talk' better than before means you have gained some valuable insight in some record time. you are a fast learner:) now maybe just take her up on the 'alright' and make an appt for a neurologist without further discussions. then the day of the appt just load her into the car and remind her she she 'made' the appt a while ago and you have to show up or be charged anyway. haa. 'fiblets' are allowed in AD caregiving and are most valuable assets to many of us. or if all else fails say the appt is for you and she is along for the ride:) best of luck, divvi