I'm not sure why I'm writing about this here, except it's troubling me and you're the people I talk to about troubling things. My husband's sister and her husband visited this weekend. DH and SIL grew up on a farm. There were six kids, so of course there wasn't a lot of money, but they had what they needed. The three youngest including DH and SIL put themselves through college. After college, SIL married a man who became a banker. They always had a lot more money than anyone else in the family. The last two times we saw SIL she talked about how poor they were when they were children. The first time, it really aggravated me. They were not "poor" in the sense that many people are. They always had food, clothes and a good place to live. This weekend, she said that her goal had always been to get more stuff, to have the "stuff" that other people did when she was a kid - to get ahead. She said she's disappointed in two of her four children because they have "no ambition," which seemed to mean no desire to get stuff. One of the sons they haven't seen in years, don't know where he is, and seem not to be particularly concerned (more disgusted with him than anything). I said that the notion of "getting ahead" didn't necessarily mean to get stuff - that to me it included getting an education, having a family and raising kids who were happy and able to take care of themselves, being able to help others, and being happy myself. There's more to it than that, including a sense of spirituality and for me being part of a church, but I didn't say that to her. She asked why I went to college if it wasn't to be able to make more money and be able to get more stuff. My answer was that I like to learn. I have been feeling really sad for her and her family since we had this discussion. The attitude really disturbs me, partly because it seems like a direct slap at her parents for all their work and at her husband and kids. It's not recognizing the worth of those people for themselves.
What's your life goal? Or what does it mean to get ahead? So many of you are so caring and giving. Now I'm starting to ramble - you can tell I'm upset about this.
Don't let it upset you, Janet. Different people have different life goals and who's to say which are "good" or "bad"? I don't think her actions/comments were necessarily a slap at her parents -- SIL just seems to be one of those enamored of material things. So long as YOU are happy with YOUR life, don't worry about SIL's actions or comments.
As for my life goal, it's just to leave this place a little better off than it was before I was here.
Good question, Janet. I was raised to think we had enough, but barely.. my mother had chronic TB and her meds were expensive, even then in the 40s. We were always "careful" with money but I was never raised to think one needed extraneous things (although, it being Houston, we lived on a mixed residential-commercial street, and most of my friends were from more substantial homes; I did miss that.)
I married a professor - and we never had more than enough money; I'm happy to see that none of my kids want Stuff, nor do their spouses. Books, yes - too many! and we inherited a few family heirlooms, but the flashier kinds of Stuff have never been among our interests and I don't think I buy anything without researching the price! Except learning, and travelling. When I could make money that was truly mine, before my husband was ill, and after the kids were grown, I spent it travelling. But even there, I was always "the frugal traveller." I just don't know how to behave any other way..
We may be alike in a lot of ways, Briegull. My husband and I were both professors. We also didn't make a lot of money, although SIL and her husband think we did. We've been traveling since we retired, although it looks as if we won't be doing as much as we had hoped. It's strange though how people can grow up in the same household as SIL and DH did and have such different outlooks on life.
Janet, I've often thought people obsessed with "stuff" are insecure and feel compelled to demonstrate their "worth" to others by accumulating tangible signs of success, or are substituting stuff for interpersonal relationships in which they receive affirmation. I don't think stuff brings happiness or allows them to relate intimately to others. I feel blessed each day to get up knowing my home is secure, the roof will be over my head, I will not go hungry and my critters will love me. Whatever there is beyond those basics is "gravy" and I'm grateful to have what so many others don't. To me it's sad that many people just don't realize and appreciate how well-off they are. Okay, climbing down off soapbox.
Janet-my husband and I raised three kids who put themselves through college, don't drink too much, don't smoke and don't buy what they can't pay for. They are always on the look out to help others. To me it can't get much better than that. My parents were hard working union people and if we were poor I never knew it.
I grew up poor, father died in an accident before I was born,was the youngest of 9 kids, mother was a dish washer in a restruant, I never thought we were poor just didn`t have what others had but it didn`t bother me, married my sweetheart at 19 and had five kids still not well off but we managed, all worked there way through collage except son who works for a construction company, no one ever asked for something not in there reach, my dh made some bad decisions about five years ago and now i just live off of his social security, i am now realizing he probley had ad then, but `i``m not complaining i still have my family and I will make do with what I have. Smile on my face/
I didn't grow up "poor", but my father, also a doctor, started practice in 1930. Although he was busy, no one could pay him, so each month he would put the bills in a hat and pay them until the money ran out. If anyone complained he told them that next month he wouldn't put their bill in the hat.
As a doctor, I've done well. Fortunately, my wife is very frugal, so we didn't accumulate a lot of stuff. We spent a lot of time, and money, doing medical mission work in the Dominican Republic. We were also able to give a lot to charity. With our present situation I'm glad she made me save some money. Now, maybe, I will have enough to carry her through the present illness. We don't have long term insurance.
Our kids all did well, getting graduate degrees, but they also are not that interested in stuff. Our oldest daughter and son-in-law like to travel and get to know people from other countries.
Especially interesting to read folly*'s comments.....I came from a pretty well-heeled family background. But my Mom and Dad didnt'. They were Depression era kids that never knew they were poor because they were like everyone else around them. They worked for EVERYthing they had, Mom on her own since she was 14 years old, my dad in school and working (at one time, I'm told) up to five odd jobs to support the family they'd begun. Like most "baby boomers", I was given so much.....my parents wanted, like others of their generation, for us to have what they didn't growing up. Dad exceeded expectations and became chief of NASA (was involved before it was even called NASA) and my mother was an executive for a General in the Air Force. They didn't live "over the edge" and actually, I never knew I had more than most until I was in my teen years. Stuff......I married two men that I put my trust in (for my financial stability and care of our family) and trusted them, and had never to worrry about the financials....had plenty of stuff. In the most recent years, the last 13 or 14, my life has once again been my horses, breeding, training and competition. Not worried about pretty clothes, the social life, much traveling (though it was nice when we did). My need for STUFF was in the form of equipment and proper show attire, feed, vetting, care for my animals. Now, that is questionable. I've inherited a lot of handmade furniture from my parents since they've downsized and want to keep it. My silver and crystall and all that kind of STUFF has precious memories attached to it. Rugs I've collected from Eurpean and near Eastern vacations are important to me as well. My life has been through many transitions......at the moment, the STUFF that I am concerned about , other than the ability to pay the bills, are dreams like wanting to buy a new light-weight aluminum stock trailer that I can use with my SUV. Filling the barn with good hay for the winter. Paying my professional trainer so I can sell my last Sport Horse. Being able to pay the farrrier and my vet. THE BIG DREAM (if you can call it STUFF is to begin my education again because I know that maybe one day I'll need it......we live longer and longer lives and maybe I'll have to have an income I can depend on that pays more than a pizza deliverer can make). Yep, I have enough STUFF. More than I need, but it's important to me. There are some things I have that simply represent important milestones in my life. I have an office in my barn where I display all the silver and ribbons and photos I've won over my lifetime with my animals. I've mentored many kids and now they're in vet school and persuing their own life goals. Some people just need their STUFF (and need to accumulate more) because maybe that is the only way they can percieve how they are doing in life's race??? They'll sort it out and find out what's important to them. For me, it's this property, my animals, fair weather for crops, adequate living space (I have no trouble getting rid of things if necessary) and enough to pay my bills.
Janet, it occurred to me later that we're faculty-types (I wasn't faculty but I worked and taught at Brown for 20 years) and that as such, we can become a bit reverse-snobby. I know I can!
It seems to me I've come across a number of people who have an abundance of life's tangible blessings - nice home, two cars, attractive clothes, money for trips and to dine out, etc. - but aren't happy or can't seem to see the good in life. When I compare that to people who have lost their jobs, their homes, their savings, aren't sure if they'll have enough food to last the week, well, I just think it's important to be aware of how fortunate I, and all of us, are for what we Do have.
I'm reminded of that everyday, most everytime I read a post. But, we are who we are. And as such, there's a lot to overcome sometimes. How we meet life's unexpected realities, malfunctions, etc.
Having lots of possessions can turn someone into a slave, and consume any free time that you have. I knew a friend who had boats. summer cottages, snowmobiles, three cars, an airplane, a motor home, a swimming pool, and countless new gadgets, and a bunch of antique cars. It seemed that he spent most of his time maintaining everything, with oil changes, cleaning and washing, and routine upkeep. He never seemed to have the time to actually enjoy all his toys, and he became a slave to them, and always complained about the cost of the upkeep. He would not drive the cars, because he did not want to risk getting caught in the rain, and did not want to detail them after their use. The more you have, the more responsibilities you acquire, and the less you enjoy them. I am glad not to have toys, and I appreciate all I have. My prayer has always been to have enough that I don't curse at God, but not too much that I forget about Him.
Well, there's stuff & then there's STUFF. My house is full of stuff--souvenir plates from travelling, special gifts from sister, children, friend, etc. What I don't have is big stuff. No boats, fancy cars, designer clothes, jewelry. Recently bought a 'new' 3 y.o. used car- should have waited 6 mos until they were all being given away--but I like it. I shopped for one with the fewest bells & whistles, no fancy radio, heated seats, whatever. Just get me safely from point A to point B. Once told a woman about my DH's giving me flowers for my b'day. She wanted to know what jewelry he gave me, when I said none, she said that if she didn't get jewelry--usually diamonds--she'd think her husband no longer loved her. We were born with the Great Depression, I never knew we were poor--not poverty--but nothing extra and I always wore hand-me-downs, things like that. But I was a happy child, knew I was loved and safe. People who ENVY material things that others have will never be satisfied, someone will always have more. Janet, your SIL never outgrew her childhood envy of the stuff others had. Sadly, I know children who envied the love other children had from their parents--seems a lot more precious to me.
I grew up on a farm of 15 acres. We raised all our veggies and canned them, raised our beef & pork so had fresh milk and never a shortage of beef. We bought our eggs and chickens from a neighbor. My mom made our bread and butter too. our toys were our farm animals whatever we could find to make a toy of. My dad drove truck in Portland. We had to cut trees for firewood to heat the house. My mom made most all our clothes, especially the girls. We had a 3 bedroom, one bath house for 5 kids (more when my older sister and her 3 came home while her husband was out to sea); had a playroom/familyroom, eat in kitchen and diningroom that doubles as the homework, laundry folding room. As long as we had food to eat, roof over our heads and the outdoors for our playground, we were happy. Oh, our bikes to. The only rule was to be home for dinner if you wanted to eat, otherwise dark. Our house was a mile back into the woods with the closest neighbor a mile away. We didn't have a horse, so rode our cow or goat. And, we were the only ones that had those to ride. I grew up working in the berry and bean fields when I became a first grader. Didn't hurt us a bit to work in the fields, beside working in the large garden and farm chores.
I thought I had it all - until I met my MIL. Close to the first words out of her mouth was "maybe now you can have the things you didn't growing up'. Couldn't figure it out since her house was smaller than ours, was in the city and she had to buy everything they ate. They both worked so were never home with the kids until night. Oh, she felt it her mission to get me out of jeans and t-shirts into polyester pant suits. She did for a while, but after 1 1/2 years we moved back to the NW and the clothes went too.
Our dreams was to always live fulltime in an RV, travel and work around the country. We both just have high school educations, but how Art graduated is beyond me. He was an excellent printer - one of the best, just never paid a lot. But we were able to own homes and lived comfortably by our standards. We got our MH, moved in, worked/traveled a year then came back to help my sister while she cared for her dying husband. By the time we got ready to hit the road, he was having short term memory loss. Now we just hope we can get some more traveling done before it is too late.
Our kids: well we adopted them when they were 1 and 2. They're needs were met but they never had what they felt they should. When they became adults they were determined to have all they never had. None of this working for it over the yes like we did but now. It has made their lives miserable.
Stuff is just stuff. As we find at this time in our lives, it is the memories that mean the most. The life we had together, even if it was stressful, rocky, bumpy, etc. My sister has tons of stuff here at her place. But the stuff are toys that her and her husband found fun and interesting. There are lots of stuffed animals that play tunes or say things. Her grandkids when they were young and mine love coming her because there are so many toys to play with.
Our only goal was to live in a safe, comfortable neighborhood, have fairly new cars for dependable transportation, and have enough income to maintain a moderate lifestyle. We were there, and starting to save and invest ALL of DW's teaching income while living on mine, when cancer struck and killed those plans. She could never work again, so it was all on me. I got laid-off for 8 months shortly after, and decided to change careers at that time, resulting in a 50% cut in pay. We had to downsize from our 4-bdrm 2 1/2 bath house to a 3-bdrm 2 bath (600 sq. ft. smaller) house. Without any income from her, we could not invest any more, and had spent what we saved on our daughter for 2 yrs of college before she had to drop out 'cause of no money. Stuff? We have most of the same furniture we got in the first 10 years of marriage. And you can't buy much new stuff living on ss.
Texas Joe: STUFF? You've got the all the STUFF most women of any quality would want. Well, speaking as a woman of some quality that is just my very humble opinion.
Stuff requiring dusting - Others may call them knick-knacks, collectibles, whatnots, I call them "dustables" and have banished most from my home. Family and friends know not to buy me any gifts that are not what I call "consumables": food, flowers, etc. I do not need nor do I want anymore stuff to take care of.
I love my stuff that I've inherited from my parents, especially. I have all the furniture and things I need. NO I DO NOT WANT MORE STUFF TO CLEAN!!! I AM tired of downsizing and selling or giving away things that have meant so much to me. I worry about having to move to a smaller place one day ...... where would all that STUFF go? Women are different than men, or this one is. Yeah, Weejun, I agree.....give me a plant, cash or canned goods any day. NOT another knick-knack to put on a shelf.......and that means I'd probably have to put up another shelf!
Twenty years ago we started renting a little cape cod cottage on Monhegan for the month of July. This was our only vacation together and until the last few years my husband liked it, as do the kids. I found that I could live very happily with almost no "stuff" except books (the owner loves books and buys them constantly), art on the walls, and a well-equipped kitchen. Now my goal is to get our year-round house to that shape. Books, art, and a kitchen! So although it's on hold for the moment, the de-accessioning of Stuff will continue unabated come fall.
Briegull, "Books, Art & a Kitchen" sounds like the dream I was working toward. Moved halfway across country downsizing from 2500 sq.ft. to 900. Tried very hard to subscribe to the "small living philosophy." Ha! Well my "books" consist of DH's extensive book collection, my own, plus an inventory of rare books. I was a rare bookseller until a few months after DX at which point I couldn't keep it up and am now still trying to get back into a position to "work" again.
Problem with the "books, art & a kitchen" philosophy is that there's also clothes, paperwork, computer & accoutrement. Man that stuff all takes up more room than I could have imagined. I got all the books out of storage and into the house but then couldn't MOVE so had to repack my own and put them back into storage and find another house. So... The nearly renovated house we're now in is still only 1200 sq.ft. and I have bookcases built into every conveivable place. I like the idea of only having the space you need but I wish I "needed" less for the two of us. Still working on it though and not about to (and can't) give up now.
In one of the books I read the advice was given to declutter your home, to make things simpler for the LO and everything easier to find. Since I read that, it has seemed like an (almost unattainable) ideal. Dh used to be the one that wanted to throw things out; now it's both of us who want to keep everything. In some moods I would really like to declutter the place. Works pretty good when I'm angry, then I am much better at discarding. Have to make sure DH doesn't see what I'm discarding, though. I think I'll make it a winter project.
Absolutely, Jeanette. Good winter project. My husband has a large professional library which I am gradually cataloging (with the free Bookhound program) to be able to offer it to local college(s). We have a fair number of rare books too - my guess is we should sell them asap as books are, frankly, becoming obsolete very quickly, except for collector's editions.
Oh, books will never be obsolete! They can keep the Kindles or whatevers. I want a book I can hold, flip pages back and forth to reread or peek at the ending, hand off to a friend to share. One I can carry in my little purse or a jacket pocket sometimes. Since we moved to this small community in 2000 and they were just starting a library I became a very active volunteer for a couple of years. I proudly hold library card #7. I used to buy books all the time but now I borrow from the library. I have read 39 from the library so far in 2009 -- just think how much $$ I've saved.
As for cleaning out stuff, my rule of thumb is if it hasn't been worn or used in a year, out it goes. It has been only rare that I've had to repurchase something I have gotten rid of.
I looked up Monhegan and am enchanted -- looks like a place from a book. I've never been to Maine; it's lovely.
I think I have a little different view of the “stuff” of life. We never had a whole lot of things to start with, but there were odds and ends stored around the house. I realized after DH was diagnosed and could no longer work that, due to our limited finances, we pretty much owned everything we were ever going to own. I sort of treat our house and garage as our “store”. We are now using and reusing everything we have. For example, we have a surplus of tables. However, we store the spare(s) in the garage, and from time to time, as our needs change, we rotate tables into and out of the house, and move them from room to room. As for clothes, DH recently lost about 15 pounds, and is now back in clothes he hasn’t been able to wear for several years. If I had given away his smaller clothes, we’d be in trouble, because we certainly can’t buy new ones. I’m now in smaller clothes, too, some of which I hadn’t worn for quite a long time. Fortunately my clothes were never stylish to start with, so they look as current now as they did when I bought them. As the years go by, of course, more and more things wear out and break, but those are about the only things we are getting rid of.
Years ago, while DH was still working, I talked to a young lady who was in charge of taking donations for aged ministers for the denomination we belonged to. Most of these retired ministers were at or below the poverty level, which is why things were donated to them. I wanted to know what kinds of things the people needed, so I wouldn’t send something they didn’t need. The young lady told me, “Oh, they don’t really NEED anything”. When I asked about clothing, she said it wasn’t like they were trying to put a wardrobe together or anything like that. I guess she didn’t realize that clothing can wear out when it’s not replaced for years, and appliances can quit working, and soap and shampoo get used up. Even years later, I think this was one of the most thoughtless (and heartless) things I ever heard, especially considering the job she had. I guess she had never had the experience of living in poverty, to truly appreciate what it can do to your living situation. Unfortunately, a lot of caregivers are living in just about as dire a situation now, and their families seem to think that they also have no needs, because they (we) are kind of old, and mostly just stay at home.
I agree Jan K. What she should have said and was probably true was: they don't really need anything, but they could sure use ........ Most of us have the basic needs, but there are wants and as you say replacements. Pants can be worn, getting thin and not a need yet, but they sure could use being replaced before it becomes a need.
JanK, valid ponts made, and definitely worth hauling out the soapbox for. Everyone's reality is a little different. We continuously learn from each other here.
JanK, you make good points. I'm glad you made them.
The thing is when my SIL talks about stuff, she's referring to what she considers valuable stuff. Even when we divided up their mother's possessions, she only wanted things that might be "worth something." To her credit, she didn't sell them (at least not immediately), but wanted them on display in her house. I know I'm being judgmental, but i still think it's sad to focus so much on accumulating things.
Weejun, I agree with you passionately about books. One of the things I like best about having a big house is that there is plenty of room for books and I don't really HAVE to get rid of any. Nevertheless I am determined to pursue the winter project of decluttering. In fact, although it's nowhere near winter yet, I was so enthused by all the stories that I started this morning! I decluttered my purse. Don't laugh. It must be two pounts lighter, I found those missing nail clippers plus a 10-Euro bill I didn't know I had. Almost filled a sugar bowl from those little sacks that DH is always slipping into my purse in restaurants. Retired an incredible number of ball-points. Found some yummy peppermints. But the best thing was, it gave me a great feeling of accomplishment. I felt so good about myself and my decluttering talents that I was kind and cheery to DH all day. I was kind and cheery even when he spilled coffee on clean pants for the second day running. (Yes, I read all the posts and I AM grateful that it was only coffee at this stage). Perhaps In response to my cheeriness, he was unusually accommodating about changing into short pants since I let him think that "all" his long pants are in the wash. It's a warm day. Now, what shall I declutter tomorrow? (Maybe the laundry room).
We ususally dont realize how 'stuff' we thought we wanted when younger becomes quite obsolete when we are older and have other needs. i have so much 'stuff' i have accumulated over the years, and at the time i thought i was so fortunate to have it all. little did i know then what i know now, priorities change and what was important then has lost its appeal over the years. divvi
Is that called depreciation? When doing the decluttering/organizing project, what I didn't trash, I could have put in a garage sale, but just didn't feel like going to all the trouble for a few hundred bucks. Instead, I donated all of it to the Salvation Army. I still have to donate my electric lawn mower and edger, and broadcast fertilizer. No more lawn to tie me down!
T-Joe....why don't you make a facebook page and we all could talk to you in real time (almost)...you could post pictures, etc and see what we're all doing, too.