Just opened up my Saturday pile of mail. I have a question for any of you who may have faced this issue. I figure I'm not the only one this has happened to. A letter from my (divorce) attorney arrived announcing that John's petition for divorce has been officially withdrawn. Okay. We knew that (duh). In the next paragraph, my lawyer informs me that (John's attorney says that) Adult Protective Services have been called and that they are investigating the matter.....this is what follows: ........"He believes that they will file both a Petition to Appoint a Guardian ad litem for the person of your husband, as well as a conservator for his estate. I do not know whether this is true or not, but I have seen this occur on occasion. If adult protective services is successful in the appointment of a Guardian and conservator, then your Power of Attorney and ability to handle the affairs of your husband will terminate"........WHAT????? Does this mean there's some question about John's safety or question about my ability to take care of him and our bills? And, who would have begun such a process? We called John's sister to see if she knew anything about this. She said she had taken no action and was no longer involved. She did, however, ask me if I had gotten a letter from APS because she had. She asked me if I had been contacted by a social worker about this. Not to my knowledge....only OT's, PT's, visiting nurses and an aid to help him with bathing. How do I find out about any of this? Is there some web search I can do into public records (?) that will let me see what's going on? John and I have an appointment with our elder law attorney on Thursday, but I plan to be in touch with him first thing in the morning so he can get right on this to thwart whatever plan is in action behind my back. With all I've been through over the past year and a half, I've gotten kind of (more than) suspicious and paranoid. John's doing fine, as well as can be expected. Why does someone think we need a third party in our business? Does someone think he's not safe? That I'm doing something I shouldn't? I'm managing to keep our bills paid up and our credit score is excellent and he is happy to be here in my care. What's up, do you think?
StuntGirl, I don't have any idea who might have contacted APS, but it's good you will be talking the the eldercare atty. I have been considering divorcing my husband for financial preservation reasons and have been advised that if I do, I will not be able to live with him, care for him and continue to make any decisions for him including care and financial decisions on his behalf because Medicaid will investigate (if we get that far) and deem the divorce as a method of avoiding repaying medicare for any $$ spent. I was also advised that should I go ahead with a divorce that the courts would appoint a legal guardian and a conservator, negating any decision making capabilities his POA gives me. Is your husband on Medicaid yet? Maybe they are investigating? Have you called APS and asked them how this investigation was initiated? They probably won't tell you but you might get a bit more info than you currently have.
Seems like anyone who would make a 'complaint' would have to have some credibility, such as at the hosp. he came home from, or one of the professionals coming to the house like OT or PT, or maybe even his doctor's office. I don't know that you would be able to find out anything in any public record. Obviously touching base with the social worker or attorney tomorrow is the way to go, unless you could get some info from APS themselves. I hope you can get it stopped...you have enough to deal with.
i agree that APS arent called out lightly. they will need to show credible proof that your husband has need to a person appointed to oversee his health and finances. it could be iniciated from any number of contacts he has had. like the hospital, aides that come to your home, stepkids, kids, or even from a doctor who has him under care. i doubt they have to be disclosed until a court proceeding then your atty probably would have access to the initial complaints. there must be a feasible complaint or they wouldnt go this far. if the APS appoints guardian ad litem for your husband and a conservator to distribute any monetary needs, you will no longer have POA , that is correct. everything will go thru this new appointee for your husbands affairs and you will only be once again the caregiver. it can get quite sticky and lots of scrutiny if this happens -you need an attorney asap. divvi
Thank you all.....it's become such a mystery. No one could be any better taken care of than my husband. He is happy here with me. I'm making good decisions. I'm stretching every cent. To my knowledge, I've done nothing that could be scrutinized. Puzzling. I feel like someone thinks I have a horrible secret to hide! Strange. Yes, talk with lawyer in a.m. and we have a face to face appt. on Thursday. I thought I was through with these kinds of complications.
EXCELLENT! Previously when I had posed this question to the attorney, I'd been advised that it was an unnecessary step to take. Now, it seems like it's a "have to". AND I understand its very expensive. And, a LOT of bookkeepping that is time consuming...like I need more to do. Seems like punitive punishment.
Jen, just wondering, did the hospital social worker suggest placement during his recent stay? And if so, how strongly did he/she urge you to place him? Otherwise, I would think it was an action by the relative (I've forgotten which one) who took the action against you in the first place. One reason I haven't made an issue over my husband's dementia (not that I could have gotten him to a doctor, "he's fine", and there is nothing like Aricept that could help him anyhow) is that I was advised that if it became public knowledge that he suffered from dementia, and I went forward with the divorce, he would have a guardian ad litem appointed, making the divorce very expensive for me.
Just a guess, but someone may know of your plans to change the will and think he needs a guardian ad litem since he's been diagnosed.
I really thought all this family feuding was defused by my success at bringing him home. I have the feeling that the kids had him change his will, as they had him make some significant changes in some other documents. We had no unusual kind of Will, either. Just a plain old will, naming me as beneficiary if he passed first and visa-versa. So, I want to take the precaution of having the same old will redrawn and notarized at the lawyers. Should be simple to do. No, when he was discharged, they told me he was definitely nursing home material.....no doubt. But, we're doing fine by most standards here at home. No one suggested that a nursing home is where I was to take him and not home. I don't get it. One of the step children could be behind this, I guess. But why? Why don't they want their dad to be happy? I'm doing a good job. Actually impressed with my ability at times. Doing things and finding strength I didn't know I had. John is quite lucid many times (though his memory is SOOO impaired) and we have discussed some of our financial issues and THIS issue over the last few hours. He seems to understand that tomorrow, first thing, we're getting his annuity cashed out and put somewhere else in my name. It's tanked over the last year anyhow, cause it's 100% attached to the stock market. Also, I'm suppossed to get the rest of his IRA transferred over to my Schwab account....then placed someplace else. Doing everything on a time scale that was suggested by my previous elderlaw attorney....everything legal. No, John's not Medicaid yet, still on Medicare and a supplemental insurance plan. I'm suppossed to be doing all this financial juggling in order to help pre-qualify him for Medicaid SHOULD he have to go into a nursing facility. Lots of little squiggles I'm doing by financial planner's advice to help preserve our estate (such as is left) from being taken by Medicaid....I don't understand it all. Just following directions.
By the way, it's MY will they aught to be worrried about my changing. EVERYTHING is in my name and HAS been for years. I'm getting ready to change it so that everything goes to (1) The Alzheimer's Association (2) The Cancer Society (3) National Pony Club of N. America., equally. I'd turn over in my grave if ANYthing went to serve one of those kids we've had. And come back and haunt them, I swear.
Anyone can make a call to Protective Services, "Mandated Reporters" include, EMT, Teacher, Daycare Provider, Nurse, Doctor, Social Worker, and the list goes on.
stuntgirl, I don't mean to be suggestive, but I am not seeing anything that makes me think you are making sure your husband is financially taken care of in case something happens to you. This taking his IRA and and placing in your name alone and also his annuity in your name alone leaves him very left out. These things are usually only done when you are ready to apply for Medicaid, thus it is being done to qualify them for help and would be done in their best interest. You could very well be challenged on this by his children
I have given this consideration. Like I said, I'm only following directions of my financial planner and elderlaw attorney. Given Johns advanced age and health issues, and my own excellent health and youth, I guess it's kind of a no brainer that he will preceed me. Guess I could get stepped on by a steer or break my neck again off a horse.....or just get T-boned by a truck at an intersection. None of us knows the number of our days. So, then, what wording could I use in my will? I dunno. I've thought about this and wondered if i should word it so that a portion of the sale of my farm itself (NOT the contents of my home or the home and a 5 acre lot) should go to defray the cost of his care in my absence. I just don't know. Really, planning on the former, that he will pass before I do, most likely. I'm really not a bad or insensitive person and hope I'm not being percieved as such. I have hired people to protect my interests as my extended family has tried its best to plan on my downfall. Don't understand it, really. There's no pot of gold burried in MY back yard!
...also, SHOULDN'T I be trying to qualify him for Medicaid now? BEFORE he goes into a nursing facillity? NOT ready to send him there. I want to do all I can for him here before I give up on my efforts. I think I'll know when the time comes for that kind of help (nursing home). He has VERY little money in his IRA (really, it's scary). He gets only his social security check and a small VA disability check. I have little income....we really are operating at a poverty level, financially. My parents have been supporting me with funds this past year and a half without John here. Whatcha see is what we've GOT. That's all.
My gut feeling is that either the nursing home in Florida contacted them since they had told you that he would only be released to another nursing home. Or the social worker or other contacts you have had since bringing him home. You have to admit you have been overwhelmed and they might be very concerned about your ability to care for your hb. If by some chance they read your postings here, that would add fuel to the fire that you may be in over your head. The social worker or someone else may truly believe he belongs in a nursing home and you refuse so this is the option they felt needed to be taken. I don't know. I can just say be ready. If you are taking good care of him, then their investigation will show that.
Stuntgirl, Don't misunderstand me when I am saying that this has to be done in your husbands best interest, especially if you do this and he is not really competent enough to understand what he is signing or if you are using POA, either way, it will only be looked upon as doing so in his best interest if he is already being placed, not in a what if situation. And YES, you could very well go before he does, many times the caregiver goes first, not only that but sometimes children die before their parents, it is not a given that he will die before you.
I am just telling you that you must be careful when you move everything to your name and have not made sure your husband is taken care of, especially if you have not yet admitted him and applied for Medicaid. Just so you will not be caught off guard, Protective Services or anyone for that matter can use this as Elder abuse.
When you go see the lawyer take the letter with you, he may elect to make quick contact with them. Like Charlotte says the letter could have come from any number of sources. Write down all of the questions you have and take them with you to the attorney. I'm sure he will be able to answer most, if not all, of the questions you have.
Yes, you should begin trying to qualify him for Medcaid, the Elder Care Attorney may be able to do a quick pre-qualification run through with you. He will be able to give you advise about how to distribute your property and move things around to your best advantage.
Hang in there, view this as another "rock in the road," there are ways around the "rock."
Jimmy, Stuntgirl's situation is quite different from normal, Protective Services is involved and she must follow the absolute when doing things in her husband's best interest, (That is true with anyone of course) Her situation is quite different in that the Protective Services is already involved and she better follow the law to a fine tune.
Jimmy you must know that the husbands Annuity and IRA are HIS assets and not hers at this point. That is a distinct asset that is to be used for the benefit of the person who owns it, same as a person's pension. The Ira is considered a qualified plan. No way under the sun would I touch my husbands IRA unless he had already told me to do so while in his right mind and then by only using a POA and it would go into his account, not mine and not until such time that I would apply for Medicaid for him, then and only then would I transfer these things to my name, I would then be doing this in his best interest in order to qualify him for Medicaid. I would not have a person unable to understand what they were signing to this. If I remember correctly Stuntgirl said that the children had him sign another POA and that he did not understand what he was signing. You have to be very careful in these situations. I am not judging anyone and please do not take it that way. I am just offering information that I know to be correct.
When you apply for Medicaid, they will ask the question is the person competent and if the answer is NO, then things you have done will be looked at, they can even make you refund things you have transferred if not in the best interest of the person so just watch out, you have to treat people right.
Update....I did some calling around and got in touch with the case manager who is apparently handling "MY CASE". She is planning a visit to my house some time soon. There were a lot of questions from her about our funds, how much is in his IRA, how did I get access to pay off my home (John agreed), how much is his annuity worth? Have I done anything with that, and asked why I even have P.O.A.....why did John and have these documents drawn up anyway? I told her we had them drawn up YEARS ago when we had our wills made. Guess the attorney at the time thought it was a good idea and we did it, I don't remember WHY....everything so invasive. The representative wouldln't tell me who filed the complaint against me. My God, I'm upset and so is John. I don't want someone else involved in the management of our lives. Apparently, there is someone who wants to set aside a trust....what????? We need every penny to LIVE on. There's no room for creating some TRUST fund. She WAS unaware that I have no appreciable income and that my PARENTS have been paying all my bills here, NOT John's funds. This is remarkable. I'm on my way out the door in a few minutes to go fax some of this paperwork to my elder law attorney. Can't wait to see him on Thursday.
Also.....I'm such a goodie, goodie, I guess, but I'm an open book. She seems to have every bit of information about John, the divorce the kids tried to force, his stay at the nursing homes, hospitalizations, etc. She asked me who my elderlaw attorney was, who was my financial planner, who was my previous elder law attorney who drew up the original plan to prequalify John for Medicaid. I'm doing everything correctly, I know it, honestly. NOT a gold digger and I haven't hidden a thing. I kind of pulled back and asked her at one point that since SHE had information that was held confidential from me (like who was it that "reported" me as a concern), was the information that Ii'm giving her held confidential too, or woiuld it be used against me? no answer....on to another line of thought and questioning. I think I've screwed myself. Again. Looser. What I get for trying to cooperate and do the right things.
StuntGirl, please take time to absorb all that Jane is saying. She is a VERY wise, knowledgeable person, who has been our in-house expert in these matters for quite a long time. You can consider yourself priveledged to have Jane's input. When she posts, which isn't all that often, it is because she knows the person NEEDS the information.
Would it be appropriate to ask her to go through your attorney for any further information. I agree that I'm an open book too and just blurt out any information people ask for. I have even been ask to be careful answering questions that my husband's "sweet daughter" asks...because she could be just play-acting on behalf of her siblings. When she came to visit last year, she began by saying, "Let's let bygones be bygones and be friends!" I loved that. I instantly agreed and was so happy. My lawyer said, "What out.... this is just tooooooo curious after almost 20 years.." oops.
As I read again my statement to Stuntgirl, I believe the gist of my advice is to "consult with your attorney".
If you want to be the Medicaid expert, so be it, just remember that the laws do vary from state to state. Some of the statements being made about Medicaid on this forum are incorrect. All of us here have enough problems to deal with without having to deal with misinformation about an important subject such as Medicaid.
The best advice is always consult with a Elder Care Attorney who is practicing in your state of residence..
sorry i disagree jimmy your post suggested she should be qualifying him for medicaide now without actually being ready to go to a facility-(per stuntgirls own words hes ok and shes not placing him yet)
its a whole different ballgame now that protective services are onboard and doing an investigation -just like Jane suggests you want to follow the law to the letter when you are on under the microscope while being investigated and not go changing alot of paperwork without letting your atty know you are under investigation. what may have been a good idea a few weeks ago and advice from an atty may not be so good now that she has this investigation under way.
i think jane was specifically stating this when she mentioned changing ira/pensions while under investigations and NOT actually trying to place him at this point. it could look like she was manipulating funds for self purpose instead and create very serious issues for the situation with protective services -And like jane suggests could create reasons for this govt agency to actually charge her with something worse than neglect or abuse. or whatever they are saying is the cause of investigation.
and if your qualifications on medicade/medicare as such that youd like to share with us, we could use more input on these subjects- but only from experts who have backup to prove what they say. I for one would most definately take ANY of Janes input to my attorney for further input as she has shown here over and over again she knows what she is talking about. divvi
Jen-please follow Jane's advice...she is dead on accurate, and her advice is almost infaillable. She is a very sharp knowledgeable person, and I would treasure her advice, because it is impartial, reliable, and best of all...free.....And since you are under the microscope, do be careful what you say and what you do....they have ahabit of picking up on small discrepencies and blowing it way out of proportion.....Hugs and hang in there.
For as much as it matters, I agree totally with Divvi. My post was intended to say the same thing. Since Jen has an attorney who is "on board" and familiar with their circumstances, I'd stick to him/her like glue and not do or say a thing without their qualified advice. She has to walk on a tight rope for a few months, at least. Can you imagine having someone looking over your shoulder and analyzing your every move - as she is. She really doesn't need this!!!
StuntGirl--I cannot imagine what you are going through. I am completely ignorant about these things and pray I don't ever have to learn like you are. Jane's advice sounds good to me. Let your elder care atty know what all is going on. He may be able to find out who complained to APS.
Jane has been our resident expert for a very long time, and her advice is always sound. I would take Jane's advice. I agree with what Divvi and Kitty and Phranque and Nancy and Mawzy said.
Just as everyone is jumping on Joe to get an antidepressant so we will all jump on you Stuntgirl to LISTEN TO JANE. Yes, laws vary from state to state, and I'm sure so do adult protective services, but you are now on the defensive for everything you do (not to us but to them) and I don't think ANY state lets you legally change the IRA or annuity into your name. Surely not, Jane? In ANY circumstances?
Well, Charles Schwab sure didn't have any problem with transfer of part of his IRA into my account (to pay off the farm) a year and a half ago....they told me that Its lawful for a husband and wife to transfer these funds back and forth as much as they want. We just had to do some extra paperwork and the broker came to our house. Also, John (having never been much of a wise man with money, evidently) always used his IRA to pay our bills from. Same as I did when he became unable to pay our bills himself. That's when I had to learn a lot about finances! We never had a real checking account since he's been retired....A Schwab account with checks...the monies were transferred from his IRA directly whenever he wanted. He always used it as his income source since he was able to begin withdrawal, I suppose. Now I know that he was taking enormous amounts of money out....far beyond what he was suppossed to. I was never involved with our finances. Geez, I feel bad. I'm going to refer her to my attorney from now on. Mouth shut. Now, I have access to his SS check which will sure help REALLY get our bills paid. I guess I'll be under the gun for doing that, too. I thought as his wife, I WAS taking care of him, financially and physically. Yes I have a good attorney on my side.....and I'm hearing what Jane is saying, too and taking that to him as well. Thank you all for your concern. We called John's divorce lawyer today (who should now be out of the picture since the divorce suit was dismissed). John asked him about the amount of his retainer fee that might be left and refunded (John doesn't remember what he paid up front or even going to visit an attorney at the time). He was told there is nothing left...we couldn't get any straight answers about where the money came from (John's account, his sister?), how much was spent in services, etc. They wrote down our address and we were told John would get a letter from his lawyer. hmmm...I'm wondering what else is being done. I mean, I put down a $10,000 retainer for my own divorce lawyer and I know the two firms are in the same 'league' in that respect. I have a little over $5,800 coming back to me. Makes me think there's another boot about to drop on my doorstep!! Why won't people leave me alone!! I've fought so hard to make John's coming home a reality! He's so happy and now so upset that I'M upset by all this bickering and meddling.
Jimmy, I agree with divvi. Jane was the one who told me that my house would be considered "marital property" even though it is considered "separate property" under my state's divorce laws. That meant that a house I had spent years working to pay down would go to Medicaid as a marital asset, even though it is in my name only. On the advice of Jane & others, I made an appointment with an Elder Law attorney and he confirmed what Jane had told me.
Jane doesn't "WANT" to be "THE MEDICAID EXPERT." She only comes on when she sees that someone really needs help with information. We value and appreciate her input. If you don't care to read her posts, just ignore them. She has been very generous with her meticulous information. You haven't been on the site to know much about her. I thought your post was somewhat rude. Jane is NOT saying NOT to go to an Elder Law (Not CARE) attorney. She is trying to be helpful to someone who asked for help. Why are you trying to make an issue out of this? Why attack Jane? Uncalled for!
Oh, guys, nobody was attacking anybody. Remember we are a family -- a rather large family which means there are a lot of different opinions and a lot of advice. We are all free to follow the advice, or not, as we see fit. Just like in-person conversations, if somebody tells us something we don't like or don't want to hear, we can say "thanks" and then go on our merry way and do what we want. Please let's don't squabble again...
Oh, family.......I didn't think Jimmy's remarks were rude at all. What I got out of it (as I'm the one in the thick of this problem) is that I should be very wary at this stage and work with my Elder Law attorney as much as possible. I've come to see that parts of Medicaid laws vary from state to state and circumstances are taken into consideration, too, everywhere. I have to put my faith in my attorney. Everyone's given me good input and varying opinions for me to consider. I appreciate it all. And, I appreciate Jane's experience and advice, too.
We are all entitled to our opinion. Sometimes someone new who doesn't know the history of the people or events comes on like gangbusters and then the fur flies. We are all stressed to the max. There are threads I am not interested in and just skip them. Jane is not telling anyone what to do-just offering good advice. You don't have to accept it. Jane and I didn't see eye to eye a while ago-but we didn't put each other down either.
I have been helped so much by Jane"s post. I just wish she posted more often. She explains everything so that we can understand. She has always said to get help from and Elder Law Attorney. From reading her post I know what do ask and what documents I should take on an appointment with said attorney. Valuable advise. Post again soon, Jane
I shouldn't have written my post in haste to take yet another load to my friend's house. I was trying to say, but left it out, that jimmy is relatively new here, and doesn't have the benefit of knowing all that Jane has contributed. If I misinterpreted this as an attack on her, my apologies. But I didn't want someone to just dismiss what she has to say, because jimmy mentioned he's seen a lot of misinformation on this site about Medicaid. I really didn't want people to connect that statement with Jane. It was not my intention to "stir things up" but rather not to lose Jane's valuable information and input.
Jane's input has been invaluable to me and I sincerely appreciate all that she has done/said on this site. Medicaid is one area that is so confusing since different states work it in different ways - and by the very nature of it also. We love and need you, Jane.
thank you for clarifying that kitty. i think we all get carried away. jimmy AND jane please lets move on and yet another squabble put to rest! :) i guess we all get defensive at times. its the insanity of the life we are living making us do it! divvi
INSANITY, YES. Please be assured, I'm going to make a direct report to all of you about the outcome of my "investigation" and Medicade issues. (I'm in Virginia). Thanks all.
I honestly did not think I would have to be dealing with this issue again, but here it is:
As I have said before, many times in writing, our true intentions do not always come through clearly, and are misunderstood.
Jane's information is valuable; we appreciate it; and we want to continue to receive it. Jimmy was doing what we all do - offer help and advice. If his or anyone else's information is not exactly correct, we should be respectful in our responses.
So I am asking as Divvi asked - End of squabbling. My apologies to Jimmy - no one meant to attack you.
All this time, I've been wondering who called Adult Protective Services. My gut feeling is that it's the professional who saw you scratched, way back when John first came home. She acted promptly on your behalf, and I think could have reported all of her concerns. You may find that it was only a query on her part and not a damning report.
UPDATE, somewhat......I just met with the inspector assigned to our case. She was very professional and no nonsense. Scary. But, I had to show her all around and tell her my life story, which she seemed to know already. She already knew about my dear little (sarcasm) step-children and all that which the doc didn't know, so I'm still suspicious about who reported me for anything. John was pretty good while she was here and answered her questions fairly well. Wish he had been more alert, however. While she was here, he DID suddenly begin condeming me for having "boyfriends" all the time. I just exchanged glances with her and denied it quietly. Told her this happens sometimes and sometimes to diffuse the situation I just agree with him. Otherwise, I told her, you just can't argue with an Alz. patient when they get something their head. I hope she understood. Anyhow, she DID tell me that this was NOT a normal situation she comes across every day (my case, that is), and gave me a comment that made me think that it IS one of the girls that has complained. She said this could take a couple of weeks to clear up or it could take months. *sigh* Anyhow, she came when the house wasn't clean....it was the other day. Sorry she missed it. On the UP side, she DID know a lot of the horsey set around here that I'm familiar with!!
I'm getting every piece of paperwork in a folder (he already has most of my info, even the stuff from my previious elder attorney in York Town, Va). I know I have everyone's support. I'll let you know what transpires.
I'd be on pins and needles, Jen. Did she show up unannounced? That's the part I'd be afraid of. I believe social workers who check on foster children do that. Does John know why she was there?? Thinking of what we said to our 3-4 year olds about being very very nice to the lady when she comes ...is the way I prepare my husband before we have someone coming over. If I repeat it when the doorbell rings, it usually "sticks" for an hour or so.
Just keep your head held high and do what you have to do to please this woman. You don't need this!!!!!!