WE have always had a joint checking account and now my husband's retirement income is deposited into it. My retirement income account is very small and I use it for my personal expenses and art supplies. I have always paid our household expenses from OUR account and now pay the farm expenses from it as well. In the past couple of weeks my husband has demanded me to give him my checkbook for this account.. It disturbs him to see my signature on checks written on this joint account. So when the statement comes, he pours over it, questioning nearly every item unless it is a farm expense. Even payments for groceries have been questioned. It is an ordeal that I dread every month. He complains that he never sees the statement....the fact is that he sees it for days..before I finally put it away. I sincerely don't know what to do. He takes checkbooks out and forgets where they are. He cannot comprehend the bills we receive in the mail. When he opens them, he often gets them mixed up in different envelopes and its an effort to get things straightened out again. I don't comment on any of this..as far as he knows, he's doing just fine. This weekend he expressed suspicion to our daughter that I was mismanaging HIS money and he could just fix that by moving it all to a different account. Along with feeling that we are at risk with the driving.. I feel we could be at HUGE risk now financially.. or maybe I feel that I AM at risk. I don't know how to minimize his fixation about the money and have wondered if anyone has had to come up with creative solutions.
I'm doing the best I can to try to take care of both of US..but this is so scarey that I guess if he did move all of OUR money..What would I do? I would be compelled to file for divorce?? Other than trying to keep calm and reasonable and not argue, I don't know that there is any protection out there for circumstances such as this. It is a joint account and I do have DPOA..but how does that protect anything at this point? He can go to the bank, look and talk as reasonable as anyone else...and make any changes he wants to our accounts. He can also lose our checkbook and never be concerned that someone might actually wipe us out. His point is that he doesnt' want ME to have it. Not a good feeling in this house.. Any creative ideas are most welcome..
Judy, has a doctor disagnosed him with AD? If so, my suggestions would be that if he is the type of person to do what the doctor says, then ask your doctor to tell him that at this stage, he shouldn't be worrying about the bank account and checks and should let you handle it for him. If he won't listen to the doctor, take him to the lawyer and have the lawyer tell him the risks he is taking with his finances at this point in his AD and you should be handling the checkbook alone. The only other thing would be to transfer the funds into your account the day after they go into your joint account and use it alone for bill paying. You could get a Post Office Box for your mail, so that the bills and bank statements go there. I have some of my mail sent to my office for this reason - he opens everything that comes to the house, no matter who it is addressed to. If he "remembers" the bank statement, distract him with something else, or tell him you don't know where it is. I took all of my husband's credit cards out of his wallet and put in a card that says that "I have Alzheimer's. In case of emergency, please call my wife at ....." he carries this along with his driver's license (he has no car keys because he can't drive - it is for identification only) and his insurance card. These are hard issues when they are in denial or forget they have AD. Good luck to you on this issue.
You certainly must do something ASAP. I'm not an attorney and could not advise you legally, but I had the exact same problems. My husband said he was going to the bank and get all HIS money out and bury it. My attorney advised me to get letters from his doctors saying he was unable to handle finances and give his diagnosis. We had a terrible thing happen whereby an employee of ours took my husband to the bank and was withdrawing money right and left. I still don't know the complete total. Anyway, I got the letteres from the doctors. The attorney then said to go to the banks and put the money in my name only. We have a trust that we did shortly after he was diagnosed with AD and he signed POA and I am a trustee. He is also a trustee, but in our case, he does not understand the trust and he does not know he is a trustee also. The attorney told me to get the money in my name only and if I had any problems at the banks (two) for them to call him. We live in a small community in southern OH and our attorney is also the Prosecuting Attorney. Soooo, I went to the banks, they both questioned me, but I had copies of the Dr. letters, and the POA and the trust and told them to call my atty. They did.....then they put all the money in my name only. The bank president said he had been alarmed for a long time because they could hardly read my husband's signature and the checks were written very sloppy. I know banks have to be careful because of privacy laws, but they seemed relieved that I was taking care of things. He had also had a bunch of checks that had bounced at both banks. WHAT A MESS !!!! I had to get very assertive with my husband. I don't know if I did the right thing or not, but it was a matter of financial disaster. I basically told him that he was not able to be in charge of managing the checkbook and money, so I was taking it all over. He got really mad and said how could I do that. I just told him to call the attorney and he would explain. He never called the attorney, nor did he ever call either bank. He eventually confessed that he was having a terrible time keeping track of money and bills, etc. He said he knew that the employee was stealing money from him by having him withdrdawal money from the bank. I really feel sorry for you, you are going through the part of AD that is really hard. You just do what you have to do and don't worry if you have to stretch the truth. I was amazed at how cooperative the banks were once they talked to my atty, etc.
Also, the mail.....I could not trust my husband to handle mail. I had to get a post office box for awhile. I simply told him he was not allowed to get the mail. We live in the country and the mail box is at the end of the driveway. After I retired, I just made sure I was the only one that got the mail. I would give him all the junk mail, back in those days. Then he got so he stopped reading even junk mail. I have tried to explain financial things to him since then, just to be respectful and make an attempt to keep him informed, but he has no idea what I am talking about. A few times he has asked if we have any problems paying our bills. I explain that everything is taken care of, I pay everything on time and if he wants any money I will give it to him. He NEVER asks for money anymore unless it is a dollar to put in the church offering. He has no idea what money we have and we never talk about the problems we had in the past. This all happened about two years ago.
Judy, this must be a normal part of the disease, if you can call anything about this disease normal. My husband also went through the money thing and the mail thing. He was constantly checking the mail box and even went to the extreme of not allowing me to go to the bank to withdraw our expense money for things such as gas, etc. just little amounts that we carried in our wallet he would not let me take. I had always taken care of all the money matters and nothing like this had ever happened, I was at a loss. I finally told him that it was ok, I would just withdraw my money from my check and we would leave his in the bank. That was fine with him, never touch the money, leave it all alone, no worry about how we would live at all. This went on for quite a while, I even got to the point I would not speak of money around him, tried not to even let him see money and he finally has forgotten what money is. The mail was also a problem, he has finally forgotten all about the mail. I think it is because mail and money are important and at a certain stage they know enough to know it is something that is very important but just do not understand what.
The main thing you have to do is just get control of all this. No matter who you make angry, it is called survival and you are doing it for the both of you. I would withdraw the funds, into an account at a different bank, into your name, I would try to change the mail until it does not arrive for him to see, this way he will soon forget about it. The key here is that you need to try to let him forget it. Out of sight out of mind.
We haven't had that problem - yet. I am gradually changing our bills over to "paperless" and get the bank statements and bills online. I have done it for a couple of years on small accounts to try it out - and it seems to be working. I keep them online and back them up on a CD. I do have DPOA and we have a joint checking account.He doesn't have a card for it or any checks and doesn't bother me about it. I did go in the bank and try to take his name off of the account. He has never signed the card to be on the account even though his name is on the account. They told me that they couldn't take his name off t since his pension goes into that account. I told them I had DPOA and they said they still couldn't do it. I haven't had a chance to talk to my attorney about it yet. I live in Florida.
faith&hope, Better think twice about getting your husbands name off the account if his pension goes into it. If you have to go to the pension department to get a direct deposit change you will end up having to be in a situation where you will have to fill out paper work and account for all monies spent from the pension. Your best bet would be to just open an account in your name, leave only a small amount in the joint account and transfer the most you can each month into your own account.
That's a good idea--the separate account. I've got it set up so the SS Disability check is direct-deposited each month into one checking account. I can then transfer the $ online to the household budget acc't when I need to, but my original object in doing it this way was to make it easier to account for how the money is spent in the event that the SS Admin begins to require a representative payee setup. My husband, fortunately, does not worry about money much. I do try to get to the mail first simply because there's a small chance he'll pick up a bill or statement thinking he needs to deal with it in some way, and I won't know where he put it down.
You need to talk to an eldercare attorney, pronto. There are all sorts of legal issues involved here. You need to worry about taking care of YOU, financially, for the long haul, as well as caring for your husband. It's probably better to set up a trust, maybe even two of them, even without the AD problems. I'd assume that you and/or your husband may have social security as well as pension income. There may be some issues associated with who can access the social security. (DPOA on an account into which the social security is direct deposited is fine to begin with, but sooner or later you have to go through representative payee or whatever the heck that's called.)
If things are done properly, you will be able to get maximum advantage of Government programs to help care for your husband. If not, then you and he will get stuck with footing the bill for a much bigger chunk. You need expert advice on the assistance programs available in your area, and what affects your husband's ability to access them.
The relief from having someone who knows about these things guiding you would, in and of itself, be worth the lawyers' fees. But you'll undoubtedly be much better off financially, as well.
Thank you all so much for your good suggestions! It has helped to hear how you have handled these things. Actually it has helped to hear that its familiar enough to be considered 'part of the disease'.. I called our banker today and told him that I didn't know how to proceed.. We started by changing the address of the bank statement for our joint account to a post office box. That is one way to keep the agitation down. I can also have the bills changed so that they come to the post office box as well. AT least it is a positive step.
As long as he is paying attention to the accounts and etc. I can't imagine HOW to transfer funds out to my account or a different bill paying account without him noticing that withdrawal. I thought I could handle it by transferring funds TO savings and then FROM savings to my account.. But that also makes me feel like a criminal.
My hope is to have things stay as calm as possible so that he doesn't feel so threatened or worried that he keeps considering moving the money. Again Thank you and after just talking to our banker, I felt better..Thankfully we live in a small town and I'm sure he had already heard about my husband having memory trouble.. I will try to find a lawyer who has experience in these things and can help me. I can't seem to say thank you enough.
Judy, I know what you mean when you say it makes you feel like a criminal. I also felt the same way. It has been 8 years with Jim now and I am just now getting to where I do not feel guilty when transferring the money. I know I am doing this for both of us. I still have Jim as the beneficiary on everything and will keep it that way until and if such time comes that I have to apply for Medicaid Nursing Home care, then I will have time to take him off as beneficiary. I guess that is my way of knowing that I am looking out for him if something happens to me.
Just know you are doing what you do for both of you to survive.
The whole thing about feeling like a criminal is very common. I felt it too and sometimes still do, even though I am taking care of my husband 24/7 and handling all our finances, there is just something about not telling him about "stuff" that produces guilt. But I have to remind myself that I am not doing anything wrong, I am looking out for the both of us and I am doing just exactly what my attorney told me to do. Our Trust is beneficiary on all our financial matters, so if something happens to me, we have a trusted person to manage the trust which will mean using it for his care. My attorney handled all the financial matters with my husband and me right after his diagnosis. Now, after reading the posts on this site, I have an apt. with an Certified Elder Care Attorney on the 21st of March by myself to see if I need to make further preparations for potential medicaid eligibility if/when the time comes for placement.
Good luck in getting things done, and remember, we are all in this together and we are all here to support each other and in some cases educate and encourage.
Jane - thanks for your suggestion about not getting his name off of the account. He doesn't pay any attention to the money, bills, etc - so I could easily transfer the pensions to another account when they come in. Such an education we all are getting in things we never wanted to know.
I used to give my husband all the junk mail that came in and an old bank statement to look at that had the date cut off and kept giving him the same one every month just so to say he had looked at it:) plus i got him a wallet and alot of that 'real' looking dollar bills...he thought he was rich, but i had to be careful or he would try to use the money. ha. soon he forgot about all the money issues and financial stuff. i would think again about having a person dx with dementia being beneficiary on any account or any insurance policy- it could become a legal issue if you were to die or become incapacitated first and they needed to collect the monies. i had forgotten to change my husband off my will as executor and beneficiary to my life insur policy. my CPA is my executor now and my individual life insur goes to my only son. we also have a family limited partnership which allows each of us to own half of our /property&financial assets, so it protects my half of the investments too -plus husbands half would be enough for his care if needed. its a lot to have to think about when you talk about the 'future'..divvi
Great warnings; thank you. My spouse is in the money hiding/hording stage. I make sure to leave small amounts out for him to find and sneak away. It seems to satisfy that need he has. In the real world; everything is mostly by computer which he can't manage. And of course, he is free to look at anything related to bill paying; its all out in labeled binders on the book shelf. He has no interest. But when I leave a dollar on the washer he is snatching it up and putting it in his wallet; smile on his face!!!
Divvi, You have brought a question to my mind about the beneficiary part. Why would it become a legal issue, especially since he has a POA named in the event that I die, our daughter would take over anything involved with Jim. It is just that the money would have to be used for Jim. I felt this way he would be better protected.
Enlighten me if I am incorrect, maybe I cannot see the trees for the forest so to speak.
Also Divvi, I would think that being the beneficiary would really be no different than your husbands half of the trust. It is just that I feel it is the only way to keep my husband protected. Please do offer suggestions that I may be overlooking. I would not want to name a child as beneficiary on life insurance that could be used for Jim's care. I feel that what we earned together should be left to him even if the POA has to control it for him. Only when Medicaid is involved do I feel that the name should be lifted as beneficiary or will. A person with Dementia has just has many rights and a person you would leave things to in a will who does not have Dementia, it is not the the demented person will be controlling it anyway.
Please again I am not trying to argue only trying to make a point and I do want to hear the pros and cons, it could be that there are things I have not thought through on this. This is why we are here, to help each other.
There is a huge difference between having a trust and being a beneficiary. Actually, several huge differences. If your husband is a beneficiary in your will, then your estate has to go through probate, and it may have to pay taxes (depending on how big your estate is), etc. This takes lots and lots of time -- your husband could be without access to your estate for months, or even years. It also takes someone mentally competent, working with an attorney. With a trust that is set up as a residuary trust -- that is, your husband is NOT the beneficiary in the legal sense, but the money is to be used exclusively for his special needs -- the money "moves" right away, I don't think there are any taxes per se, AND the money is not "his" and therefore he can get access to Government programs (Medicaid etc) even if the trust has a lot of money. Your husband will be much better off. Insurance policies should be part of the trust, not name your husband as beneficiary, or they can affect his ability to access Government programs.
You can name a child that you trust to be the trustee, or you can choose a professional fiduciary, preferably one certified as a conservator or guardian. I decided on the professional fiduciary, because a good one either has support staff or a network of contacts who have all the expertise needed to care for an AD patient -- legal, financial, healthcare, etc. Those certified as conservators/guardians know all the resources in your area on which they can call, and know which ones are good.
Anyone with any size estate at all should check into setting up a trust, especially if the spouse has AD.
It's because of things like this that I suggested contacting a good eldercare attorney. I'm learning soooooo much, trying to make sure my DH will be protected and cared for.
Let me clarify what I said about who the trustee is. YOU would be the trustee for as long as you live. When you die, THEN the person you appointed as residuary trustee would take over.
You'd pretty much handle everything the way you have been as trustee, it's just that the accounts are in the name of "The Loving Jane Trust" or whatever you decide to call it, rather than in your name. So you just sign things as trustee of the trust.
Sunshyne, I do know that the Trusts when set up as far as Medicaid goes have to be irrevocable, also you or your spouse cannot have any type control such as being able to disolve the trust or be able to take any and all amounts that you wish from the trust even if it is not irrevocable as far a Medicaid is concered or it is all counted and will disqualify the person. Also even an irrevocable trust has to be done 5 years before applying for Medicaid. This lets me out because I would not want to enbark on a trust with this disease in the stage we are in.
I guess I should have been clearer when I said I made Jim beneficiary, I should have said that I have made everything payable on death to Jim. This way nothing goes through probate. We have made our home over to our daughter with a life estate left for us so the home is protected and we have done that within the lookback time frame. With our daughter as POA for Jim this really should not be a problem as far as I can see. Please again enlighten me if I am wrong, I am still learning.
If I were to make our daughter beneficiary or POD then if anything happened to her it would all go into her estate and nothing left for Jim. I can't see that it would be good that way either. Realize that I am speaking of while Jim is still at home, once he had to go into a nursing home then things would be changed. I just can't think of another way to be sure he is just not left out. I have to look out for him. Trust would be ok if it had been done 5 years ago, was irrevocable, and neither of us had any control as to how the monies were disbursed. I do know that any monies that are disbursed from a trust are also counted as income as far as Medicaid. Medicaid does and will look at and count certain types of trusts.
With our brokerage accounts, bank accounts, and all liquid assets Jim is POD. Our daughter would use the POA and take control of all and take care of her Dad. I guess there is no perfect way.
Jane ... You really should talk with a good eldercare attorney, not us non-legal types on this site. Maybe it is different where you live, or maybe the difference is that you're looking at joint assets and I'm talking about my assets, not my DH's. But it is my understanding that the trust is revocable as long as I live, and only then becomes irrevocable. And if properly set up, the trustee (me or the trustee who takes over when I die and the trust becomes irrevocable) can distribute whatever sums are needed for my DH's care without them being counted as assets or income with regard to Government programs.
If you've already used a good attorney in your financial planning, well and good. If you haven't, I really think you should. It's worth the investment.
Sunshyne, I do hope the Elder Law Attorney you had set up your trust knows the Trust law as it pretains to Medicaid. Believe me, this is a Federal Law, applies to all States and if you as the Trustee can liquid the trust then your DH would not qualify for Medicaid if you had to apply. They will count this type trust. When the a/r or financially responsible person is the grantor of a revocable trust, apply the following rules: a. Countable Resources Count the current principal plus proceeds that have not been distributed.
b. Transfer of Resources Apply transfer of resource policy to any disbursement from the trust principal or proceeds to or for the benefit of an individual other than the a/r. Refer to MA-2240, Transfer of Assets.
Hello Friends Well the money monster reared its ugly head again. I tried to follow our banker's suggestion to sit down with my husband and have him 'participate' in the bill paying and the signing of checks.. There was an almost visible withdrawing that I didn't really understand but finally I get it.. I GET IT.. He doesn't want to pay for anything from HIS money! He wants me to hand over my pittance of a retirement and pay the bills from that. This week he nearly refused to deposit a check because I suspect that he wanted to CASH it and carry the cash in his wallet.. The wallet is already stuffed with a couple of other cashed checks.. ..I talked to the banker again today and there is no restriction on his ability to walk in and withdraw everything. He has been threatening to take all the money and move it...if he actually did such a thing I can only hope the people at the bank would call me.
Among some of your responses, the idea of withdrawing a certain amount into my own account so that I could pay the bills..seems the thing to do. I'm going to try to do it this way. I will pay all bills from my checking account and will withdraw the amount of those bills from our savings each month. That way, there will be no objectionable activity on OUR joint checking account. Nothing but checks he has written at stores, and the bills that are automatically paid from our account. I'm praying this could be a solution until the time comes when this isn't such a huge issue. The savings statement will not come to the house..it will be sent to a post office box. I'm wondering if that sounds like a SANE plan... There will be a time when I can get the accounts changed..but not now.. We just need to get this raging fire put out and hope for the best.
Judy, Have you thought of telling the bank to just stop sending the statement to your home address and send the complete statements to the P.O. Box. Your husband will forget that the statement is even suppose to come and you should be ok. Does he still help balance the account? How does he know when he writes a check if he is overdrawn? What stage is he in? My husband also went through the wanting nothing spent from his and just use mine for all bills and living expenses. Of course this could not be so I just let him think it was being done. Do what you can to get control of the statements and see if you can just get him to deposit most of his check telling him you should be saving his and spending only yours. If you get it put into the bank then maybe if the statments stop coming he will soon forget about the checking account. Start having him buy everything by cash that way no checks will be written. Little by little he will even forget all about these things.
Judy, I have just had to deal with the money situation. (See internet scam!) I met with an attorney who suggested that our situation was so critical I should see an emergency conservatorship (controller of money). An initial meeting with an attorney on Fri (last week) resulted in my approval, by a judge, on Tues morning. It is actually a guardianship/conservatorship. This will be in effect until the permanent one can be processed. Since my husband is on psychiatric meds, she also included the appointment of me as a "treatment guardian" so I can demand the administration of these meds as needed.
This paperwork gives me the legal ability to access and control all financial accounts, whether in his name or jointly. I cannot sell any assets during the "temporary" part.
It is similar to the DPOA, but he cannot revoke this.
They had to notify anyone with a potential interest, in this case, our adult kids. I had to call two of my kids and tell them I was declaring their Dad incompetent (to manage person and property). In many ways it was harder than telling them the original diagnosis, but it eliminates his legal ability to spend/flitter away our retirement funds.
I don't have any of these serious money problems. What bills we have are just paid on line, though my DH has no interest in the financial part and hasn't for a very long time. He has no credit cards in his wallet. I pay for everything that requires cash since for a very long time he would take so long looking at cash and getting it back in to his wallet that I was afraid someone would rip him off. He only has three $20 bills, which are only used when I need to borrow them! As soon as we get back home I replenish his three bills and he is satisfied to fold those and put them in his wallet. I've heard of couples who allow the AD spouse to have old checks and write/play with those, which seemed to satisfy. It's been a while so I can't remember why I had to do this, but I had to have my DH sign something for his PERS pension. It is automatically deposited and says POA, my name, REP PAYEE. I've forgotten why I had to do it this way, but it might be worth it to check any retirment money that comes to your AD spouse. I think I hate the financial part worse than the disease, though we have no complications such as referenced above.
My DH's checks go straight to the bank and I have all the normal bills drafted out. I have always handled the money since we have been married so that isn't a problem. The one thing that bothers me is my DH will ask "Do you have any money for me". Or if I am sorting through coupons for the groceries he asks if I'm counting money. He says them in a joking way but it is getting on my nerves! He gets money at the begining of each month when I go to the bank. the only thing he pays for out of that is his hair cuts. Once in a while he will buy dinner. Come to think of it he hasn't done that for a while.LOL. Anyway he has never carried a large amount of money in his wallet and still doesn't. He has what he calls "Hole money" stashed somewhere in his bedroom! He just takes out what he thinks he will need for hair cuts or dinner.
For a while a couple of years ago, Ralph went on and on about how he needed a job. No matter how many times I told him that we were alright financially and he did not have to work, he keep it up. I have always taken care of our finances, so he was clueless and thought we needed the money and could not understand the bank statements. I solved the problem by going to the bank and getting him a couple hundred dollars for his wallet. He loved it and I heard no more about going to work (of course he could not hold a job). He liked having the money to spend when we went out to eat or just paying for things. He still likes having quarters in his pocket.
I wrote a long winded thing this morning and by the time I was ready to 'send', I had been bumped offline.. That was probably for the best and you were all spared some venting etc. This week has been the ultimate in persistent upheaval about the money. Just as I had settled on a 'plan' and the new day dawned yesterday, we entered a new round of arguments. My husband finished his breakfast and as soon as he took the last bite, his demeanor changed to anger and he wanted to know where I put the money (over 200,000. he says) from the 'old' bank..and insisted that I bring out the box (?) and show him what had happened to all the accounts that I had combined to keep him from. He was through with my underhandedness and on and on.
To make the earlier too long version short. I looked straight at him and told him firmly that this must stop right now. I cannot stay here and argue about these things. Our money is secure. NEVER did we ever have 200,000. Never has anything been removed from the accounts he set up himself. (not yet anyway).. I told him that if he didn't stop, I would leave. That might have gotten his attention. Today has been without incident, thus far. Thankfully, our children are supportive. I'm poised to follow through. If he brings up that topic again OR if he goes to the bank and removes or changes our accounts, I will leave.
In my heart, I don't believe my husband wants me to leave. The 'disease' monster just seems to take over. The key will be to get past this phase and have things settle down so that we can get to a point where he isn't reminded about money or etc. Someone asked what stage he is in.. I'm not sure..His last MMSE was 20, 4 points lower than 6 months ago. The clock drawing exercise was pitiful. Not sure if this is scored differently. I have never planned to abandon him or his care but we'll hope for the best right now.
Thank you all so much for suggestions. The conservatorship is possibly be something we need. I plan to see a lawyer as soon as humanly possible.. yikes..
Here we are again, dear friends. Things have been going fairly well I thought. My husband is not driving while he waits for his court date to contest the DPS ruling that revoked his license. He wanted to get a haircut so I dropped him off at the barbership and asked him to call me when he was done. The barbershop, BANK,and grocery store are all close to each other in our small community. He didn't call and when I started out the door to go find him.. he was sitting on the front porch! What I discovered later, was a new checkbook, a new checking account that he had opened at the bank. It is a single named deposit account..single signature. Evidently, there was a very good reason that he didn't didn't want to be picked up after his haircut.
I talked with the banker a month or so ago about his condition and his agitation over my 'mishandling' HIS money and had the address for the bank statements changed to my P.O. Box. which will happen with the June statements. Also, I have been paying everything from my checking account and had planned to draw from savings what I needed just so he wouldn't see any transactions on our joint bank account statement that worried him...(food, gasoline..etc).. In this way, thanks to so many of your good suggestions, I felt relatively ok about money matters.
Now, here we go again. I don't know what to do about this, if anything. There is a fear that he will decide to TRANSFER from OUR account into this new one. Although the banker knows our situation, I doubt that the new accounts person does..so he just walked in and politely opened that new account with a check from the sale of some cows and here we go again. It upsets me and I can't even think straight. I want to protect US and he's trying to protect himself from me. If he doesn't trust (and he doesn't)..then this becomes and is...nearly unbearable.
I'd appreciate hearing any suggestions ..I haven't mentioned knowing about this account..and won't until I have some sense of direction.
If you speak with the bank manager could you have the accounts flagged to indicate that he has AD and hes not capable of making transactions on his own.?
I would have been in a similar situation as DH no longer understands that utilities, taxes, insurance ,groceries have to be paid for. He thinks I'm stealing his money.Also he wants to leave his $$$$ to his children. Fortunatelky the wills were made when we married and I have control of the bank accounts.Even if he tried, I don't think he could handle banking. He has forgotten his PIN and doesn't know how to use the ATM. Thank God for small blessings. I hope you find a solution if you speak with the bank.Perhaps you need a statement fron the doctor.
i hope you have POA for DH if not you need to get to an atty asap and have one drawn up for you 'both'. this seems to pacify the AD thinking you are both doing the same thing for each other. i had to change mine lately as i still had DH as my poa. i would try to see bank with dr letter attesting the AD and see how that goes but they will most likely want a POA on file. without poa you would never be able to deal with any accounts he opens in his name only. maybe you could have him sign a 'blank' check from this new acct, no date no money amount, and say its for paying something? then hold it for emergency to draw out all the cash later?...its a tricky thing hes gotten this far and able to do this on his own...i hope you find a solution fast. divvi
divvi, a "blank" check like that, which has had one or more spaces filled in by someone else -- even if it's just the date -- is actually considered to be an altered check and should not be processed by the bank. Sometimes they do, but it can be contested.
Judy needs to talk to an attorney, but I suspect POA isn't going to accomplish what's needed here. The banker may understand the situation, but from a legal standpoint, his hands are tied. Until the court determines that her husband is unable to handle his own financial affairs, then he has the right to do what he wants.
I suspect Judy is going to have to petition the court for conservatorship. Then she can try various strategies to make her husband think he's involved etc, but she will have the legal right to stop him from doing something disastrous.
If its not too late (mentally)to have a durable power of atty drawn up (DPOA) that would go into effect immediately and remain in effect if spouse was incapcitated mentally or physically, i dont see why that wouldnt work at some point to close out any single accounts plus if you have a dr letter also stating spouse isnt capable of financial affairs... i was not aware of the 'blank' check thing, thanks, but i have always made out checks then have DH sign them when he was still able/even done this for my mom then she signs...never had any issues from any banks - thank goodness.
divvi, I found out about the checks when my husband gave a "friend" several checks that were filled in except for the date, without my knowledge. She saved them up and then thoughtfully tried using all of them within a two-week period to withdraw four times his total monthly income. Very, very messy. Her bank processed them without question, his bank processed the first (wiping out the account), then sent him an NSF notice when the second check bounced, alerting me to what was going on. The bank told us altering checks -- even if it's just filling in the date -- constituted fraud, and recommended that we file a police report. My husband didn't want to do that to a "friend", so we agreed that he would just close the account. The "friend", meanwhile, presented a third check to her bank, and her bank gave her the money without waiting to see if it would go through. When it was returned because the account no longer existed, and she refused to pay them back, her bank threatened to sue my husband for conspiracy to commit fraud. We had no choice then but to file a complaint with the police and deal with the detectives in an investigation, etc. Big fight between the banks, and between the banks' insurance companies, over who owed whom what.
The bank also told me that they're not supposed to cash checks that do not have a date filled in. If someone shows up trying to cash such a check, they are required to tell the person to go back to the originator of the check and get him/her to fill it in. They often turn a blind eye if the person just goes outside, fills it in himself, and brings it right back. But again, it isn't kosher, and if the originator wants to kick up a fuss, the law is on his side.
Anyway ... It is my understanding that the problem with using a POA that kicks in when the spouse is incapacitated is that it has to be obvious that the spouse IS incapacitated, e.g., in a coma. I don't think a letter from a doctor that he has mental problems would do it.
I assume it would work if Judy can get her husband to sign a POA that kicks in immediately without any stipulation that he has to be incapacitated, but could she get him to sign something like that? The attorney would have to be sure that her husband understood he was giving away his right to act in his own behalf, and I suspect is still mentally capable of figuring out what she was trying to do and wouldn't be terribly cooperative. So unless she can find a way to finesse the situation, she may have to turn to the courts.
Thank you all for your help. I see that the worst is possible and its just so 'odd' that out of the blue nearly, this has cropped up..again. Evidently, the second, I assume anything is 'settled' or at rest..there's a surprise.
I talked to my husband's doctor's office today and asked him to send me a letter confirming his diagnosis, so that I can present the letter along with the DPOA if the bank says they need it. Otherwise, my son says if it appears that he is going to transfer money away from our joint accounts into this single account...they (meaning our 4 adult children) will sit down and confront him and tell him he is impaired and he cannot do that. I suppose that should make me feel better? I can call into the automated teller system and check the activity on our accounts.. I just don't know how to go about getting the conservatorship or etc..without my husband being involved in this in some way. He doesn't want anyone to come here to 'babysit' with him much less have a 'guardian'.. Even though he needs BOTH.. Again, thank you and I'll try to work with the bank and then see a lawyer.. By the way.. how in the world do you get OUT long enough to actually meet with a lawyer? Mercy..
Judy, maybe one or two of your 4children could come take him out for a few hrs or stay at home with him while you see an atty. i hope the dr letter and DPOA works for you. in our DPOA it kicked in as soon as we signed it and remains in effect whether we become mentally incompent or not so it doesnt matter if my DH has the AD or not at this point because it was valid immediately at signing several yrs ago...thats what a good atty will make sure you have protection upfront. read yours and see if it becomes effective immediately or only when he is deemed incompetant?? if incompenent then yes i would think you would need him to be 'declared' as such legally. that would make it more stressful and harder on him too-it made it easy for me to do all the banking and transfering of monies in the early yrs..my best to you, i know its so fustrating esp when they have no clue we are trying to help/divvi
Judy, "conservatorship" does not mean that anybody comes in to babysit or anything like that. If you petition the court to be your husband's conservator and your petition is approved, the court gives you the legal authority to make decisions for him. You can ask for conservatorship of the person (which gives you the right to make decisions regarding his healthcare, where he lives, etc.) and/or of the estate (which gives you control of his assets.) The court gives you "papers" which you use to show people that you have legal authority. If you are conservator of the estate, then you also prepare annual reports to the court.
As far as your BEING his conservator, your husband wouldn't really notice any difference ... other than that he wouldn't be able to set up accounts on his own (or you would have the right to close them or access them if he did.) And, if it ever gets to the point that you can no longer care for him at home, it gives you the authority to move him into a NH whether or not he agrees.
He WOULD have to be involved during the petitioning process. The court would assign a court investigator to check into your particular situation (talk to you, to your husband, your children, your husband's doctor, etc) and make recommendations as to whether the conservatorship is needed and/or whether you would be a suitable conservator. The court would also assign an attorney for your husband who would represent his best interests; in my own case, my husband's attorney talked with me by phone for a while, then asked to meet with us. She met with both of us for maybe fifteen minutes and then with my husband privately for maybe ten minutes, and then she wrote and submitted her report to the court. After all that is done, you and he would participate in a hearing before the judge.
If he cooperates, it can go pretty quickly. I assume, in your case, his willingness to cooperate would depend on how the situation was presented to him, and what sort of "mood" he's in at the time. I emphasized to my husband that I wanted to be sure that I had the right to take care of him, make sure he gets the medical care that he needs, and make sure that his children did not try to interfere (rotten little so-and-so's). He accepted that I was acting to protect him and care for him, so I didn't have any problems with getting his cooperation.
In my experience, the attorneys who represent the proposed conservatee and the probate judge are very careful about how they explain the conservatorship to the AD patient. They don't use inflammatory words, and are very sensitive to the particular problems you may face with your ADLO and are careful not to do anything to set him off. (For example, they ask the ADLO if he understands that you would have the right to make decisions about his medical care ... they do NOT ask him if he understands you could decide to place him in a NH against his will.)
At the very least, I would suggest that you consult with an attorney with expertise in setting up conservatorships. That will give you a much better feel for what you can do with DPOA versus the conservatorship, what the petitioning process would be like in your neck of the woods with and without your husband's cooperation, whether a guardianship or a conservatorship would be better (if they have both where you live), whether you will eventually need to petition the court at some point in the future anyway and, if so, whether it would be better to petition the court now or wait a while, etc.
Thank you all for such good information! It helps to get a general idea of what is possible. I will have to make an appointment with a lawyer. I sincerely appreciate knowing more about how some of those processes work and thank you for taking time to explain.
I have no confidence that he would cooperate with anything other than the DPOA that is already filed of record. The fact that he has called a lawyer friend to represent him in appealing the revocation of his driver's license..indicates that he's not likely to be willing to admit or agree that he needs any type of supervision or care.
So far, he has not agreed with anyone that he has alzheimers..even though the doctor TELLS him. Its just mindboggling. Again.. thank you.
I started a campaign with my husband long before he actually needed someone on how it would be nice for him to have company for a while during the day and talked about how he wanted my help doing some things around the house and as I didn't have time due to work. This went on for a while. One day he told me he was lonely when I was working all day. I reminded him that we could get a companion in to help him with suff and at that point he agreed. I had a companion the next week. We started with a few hours a day and worked up to full time as my husband needed more care. This was a blessing to me as she also came for a half a day on Saturdays when I could no longer take him on errands with me so I could get those done too. He liked her and they got along pretty well together.