I know that there's a five year lookback for funds given to relatives, whatever, when you apply for medicaid. I've also heard that they don't look at "stuff." What I am thinking is that I could help out my son and his family not with money but with the new water heater they need, stuff like that. Anyone know if that would pass okay? We seem to be a far way away from needing medicaid - or a nursing home - but I am lining my ducks up too..
Although Medicaid is a federal program, it is run by the States, and each State has different rules. In all States, there is a five year look back, but I don't think buying a new water heater for your son is a problem. Last I heard, you could "gift" up to $14,000 a year.
However, the good news is that I am bringing on board a Medicaid expert - she will start by writing an article for the website, then I hope to expand to either monthly articles or having her be "on call" to answer message board questions. We haven't worked out the details yet.
Briegull The 5 year look back in Ohio looks for "improper" transfers of cash, stocks, bonds or property. You should be able to buy anything and give it away. Medicaid just wants to be sure you didn't sign your home car or savings account and other things like that over to someone to avoid it being counted as assets. I think if you want to give cash to your kids you would withdraw it as cash and give it to them that way. No paper trail. I would do it in small incriments just to be safe. It would be best to check the medicaid rules for your state first. Joan I thrilled you are bringing an expert aboard. We all need good advice. cs One good thing has come of our struggles with all of this. Our friends and family members are now thinking ahead and making plans just in case....
It's great to hear we are getting a Medicaid expert on board.
I have found out a new piece of information this past week. In Georgia they will not pursue estate recovery of the primary residence unless the NF stay exceeds 6 months. I don't know if that is same in all states. The Estate Recovery Act should be consistent from state to state as it is federally mandated.
Medicare would pay for the first 100 day, Medicaid will pay up to six months without estate recovery. after Medicare's 100 days, Medicare will cover hospice care. I hope this information is correct, can someone verify if this is the situation in all states?
If the nursing home stay exceeds 6 months then the state will pursue estate recovery. This means your LO could get 9 months of NH care without the possibility of losing the primary residence. If they went on hospice at the end of a 9 month stay, then went on hospice for a year, your LO could get up to 1 year and 9 months of care using Medicaid without estate recovery. Is this correct or just wishful thinking on my part?
We had a joint money market account that I put only my paycheck in. Recently I transferred the money into a money market in my name only and closed out the other. The only money in there in from my earnings now. Do you think that will be included if and when the time for medicaid comes?
That's a good question--I would think that your State would ask to see tax returns for a few years back. If so, wouldn't the interest on the money market account show up? I believe a spouse is allowed to keep one half of the assets, up to a maximum of roughly $100,000 in their own name, though.
For the purposes of qualifying for Medicaid jointly owned accounts and property are considered to be owned by the community spouse (you), this includes real estate, bank accounts and automobiles (only one car allowed). As the community spouse your eanings will be excluded from the medicaid calculations. As Marilyn notes you will be able to keep a little over 100K of your assets without spending down.
They don't ask for tax returns, you will have to prove that the property is owned jointly and prove the sources of your loved one's income such as SSI or pension income. You will have to produce auto licensing information, real estate tax bills, insurance policy info, etc. if DH was married previously you will need to provide information on the earlier marriage.
Ok folks here I come. I am so happy that Joan is giving us a Medicaid Expert. I will have many questions I am sure. That will be an asset to the web site. Thank you Joan.
briegull, the water heater would be ok but you just have to hope yours don't go out and then you have to show why you bought two otherwise the heater would be considered a gift. My water heater just went out yesterday.
Joan, you are confusing the $14,000 gift with Federal gift tax, if you give $14,000 you better bet Medicaid will count it.
cs you are right on track, only problem is if you are drawing to much cash out, the part you are trying to gift to your child and the part you are needing to use yourself it might look unbelievable and be questioned. It is better not to try to fool Medicaid.
Jimmy it is incorrect that you will be allowed to keep 100K of your assets without spending down. You are allowed as a spouse to keep half of your assets, up to 109,000 as the community spouse, so if you have $100,000, you can keep $50,000, if you have $200,000 you can keep 100,000, if you have 218,000 you can keep 109,000 but if you have over $218,000 you still are only allowed the $109,000.
Carolyn Yes, all money and assets in your name as the spouse will be counted as one. They count anything either spouse has, that is why there is no lookback penalty when a transfer is made to a spouse, they count it anyway. As far as your income, it is yours, they do not count your income, your income is counted though when it comes to deciding if they will allow you any of your spouses income to live on once they are placed. And yes, they do ask for tax returns. They also ask for copies of your bank accounts, if you cannot provide them they will contact the bank and get the ones they need.
Jane, how did you know my water heater's 20 years old too!!
Everything else you said is exactly what I'd heard - the 109,000 etc. I keep a few thousand in a "business" account - I do a few things that make a few hundred $$ a year and it's the slush fund out of which I buy supplies I need. I was told by the elderlaw person that this would also be counted. But they also said that the medicaid did not look at "stuff" as much.
In my state (RI) I was told by someone who's just gone through it all, that she had to supply five years worth of bank statements and tax returns, etc. I do have them, but I was planning on cleaning out the attic and getting rid of a lot of stuff!! Now I won't.
I'm sure you can but it might take time and money. Just the statements won't take up a lot of space. I do online too and as long as they have them, that's fine; I worry that they'll stop having them available and THEN where would I be! So I download them every month and just make sure they're backed up. I hate paper!!!
I learned this the hard way so I want to pass it on. I went to the Dept. of Jobs and Family Services in Ohio to file a request for Medicaid. After waiting 3 hours fon an interview I was told the application for nh care has to be filed through the nh while your lo is there or within 30 days of discharge. Since I had filled out the paperwork they had to go ahead with the process and formally deny the request. Fate is so strange. Later that very same day John became ill and had to be hospitalized. He was then transfered to the nh and hasn't been home since. I made the application again through the nh about 10 days ago and am awaiting the interview. cs
jane, thanks for your input and corrections. leave it to medicaide/medicare to bring you into our midsts.! :) i was sure you'd reply to jimmy.. hahah..
nope irs will get you for sure!!, not sure about the rest! haha. divvi
Our elder-law attorney (in Maine) suggested putting the house in a Qualified Personal Residence Trust. The way this works is that the owner (in our case my wife) puts the house in trust for a specified length of time, such as 3 years. If she is still alive at the end of 3 years, the trust terminates and the house goes to our kids. After that, if we live in the house we have to pay the kids fair market rent. This gives the house, plus additional money to the kids and will not be included in what medicaid looks for. There is the 5 year "look back", so it helps to do this as soon as possible. I plan to do it this summer, after discussing it with our kids. It would not help any to transfer the house to my name since, as the spouse, my assets are also included for medicaid. Although my wife is not mentally able to make this transfer, I, as POA, can do it.
Next-door neighbor phoned this aft and said she's aiming for a lawn sale on the 27th of June; I'd asked her to let me know when she did it next, so I could piggy-back on hers. Now I have to gather up the stuff I've been thinking I should put out. T'would be nice to have a few fewer things around here!
marsh, I don't know why you would want to place your home in a situation where it would go to your children and not to you. As a spouse you are allowed the home, and if you start to place your wife with a Durable Power of Attorney that allows for gifting then you would be allowed to gift the home to your yourself. Although Medicaid does include all assets both husband and wife there are some assets that are not countable and the home is one of them. Why start a 5 year look back and give up the home???
The home is not a counted asset in all States, some states allow the home value to be $500,000 and in your State of Main I think the value is $750,000 and also most states do not count the home regardless of the value if the community spouse is living in the home. You really need to check this out before you gift the house into a trust that will take the home away from you.
Yes Marsh please do. Just because an Attorney is considered an Elder law attorney does not mean they know all about Medicaid. If saving the home from Medicaid is your reason for considering this Trust then that is not needed. Be careful
From what I have seen in the past, what Medicaid does is allow the community spouse to live in the home but when that spouse goes to sell or the spouse passes, everything Medicaid has paid is in a lien against the house, this happened with my grandparents in AL who had owned their house without a mortgage for a number of years. My mom only received 13,000 for the house when it sold after Medicaid took their chunk! This was the house she was born in and my grandfather built
decblu under current laws Medicaid does not take the home from the spouse. The community spouse with the proper durable power of attorney can gift the home into their own name therefore no estate recovery. If the house is sold while the one spouse is still living in a nursing home and the home is not yet in the community spouse name then would be where the recovery would come into play.
Jane, that's what the medicaid consultant that I talked to told me. And I believe he said in our state we have 30 days after spouse goes to NH (on medicaid) to gift the home with no consequences.
$44,000 a year?? That would be like hitting the jackpot. That is more than we ever made when both of us were working and we always lived comfortably. We always owned our home, had two cars and usually an RV. So it is possible.
DeIs for Medicaid in WA I guess you are meaning Washington??? The minimum allowed is $45,000 not $44,000, that is the least that is allowed, you are allowed half up to 109,000+. so if you have $218,000 the community spouse is allowed $109,000 of that. If you have less than $45,000 you are allowed to keep it all.
Charlotte, No it is not per year it is the total amount allowed in countable assets. The monthly allowed in Washington is $1750 up to $2,739. The larger amount is harder to get you have to justify this extra need and it is hard to do. They have guidelines they go by. The $1,750 allowed for the spouse at home can include the NH spouse income if the spouse at home does not have this amount on her own.
I guess I didn't make myself clear. Sorry. In the State of Washington I am allowed our home & contents (in my name only), one auto (in my name only) and $44,000 total (in my name only) in cash or investments to last me the rest of my life. My husband is allowed $1,000 total for one year. After that I believe he can have about $60.00 @ month. The State of Washington will take his SS check and the small pension that he has. If you can live on your own SS and $44,000 for the next 20 years I want to live with you.
DeIS That is incorrect. In the State of Washington as I said before you are allowed $45,000 to live on for the rest of your life and in addition to this you are allowed your income and if it is not as much as $1,750 you are allowed a portion of your husbands social security and pension to make up the difference. I know this is correct you need to check it out.
Although as you say the amount is not much but it is more than you are understanding.
I've been transferring funds into my name for the last several months. The house is still in both of our names. The funds are now in 10 year annuity that pays $X a month. I find that I'm getting really bogged down with all of this. I just can't seem to concentrate on it much more.
Good luck to you all. I hope it all works out for all of us.
Mawzy, I hope you make a 5 year look back on the annuity and that it is irrevocable. If not, they have changed the laws regarding annuities and now some states are considering the income stream to be marketable, meaning that they treat it somewhat like a structured settlement and will count what the income would bring on the open Market. This is crazy I know but it is now happening.
The property and how to best spend down or title change, when, etc. has me thououghly confused. Since my dh is in Stage 6 I am going to make another apointment with a Elder Lawyer and take in my POA, Wills, MPOA, Living wills and deeds. Going to lay it all out on his solid gold desk and say, "What should I do When and How?" Anything else I should take? This will be the 4th lawyer I have consulted over the past 7 years and hopefully I will feel relieved to get my situation in order. I have heard this Elder Lawyer speak on the subject and believe he can talk my language (if that's possible). I hate talking to people who cannot relate to me in language I can unerstand.
I called this morning to make the apointment with the lawyer. His secretary told me he only does Medicade and when dh is within a month of being placed I should come to him and he will help me spend down and do whatever else he can do to preserve as much for me as possible. His partner does the Estate Planning and that is who I could see now but I seen him last year and he said things were ok for now.
She said he only does WV and since we live on the border with Ohio, if I placed him in Ohio I would have to get a lawyer in Ohio. She also said in WV the residence is not counted and I wouldn't have to worry about changing the deed to my name. However, I do have other property other than our residence and I should have that put in my name. I have the property for sale but it has been for sale for 3 years so I am going to put that on my list of things to do. So, I am ok until about a month before placement.
Thanks Jane and others for all your information. This is just so complicated with each state "doing its own thing".
i agree imohr. should be one way for all states. no mumbojumbo! you may want to check it out in both states. some NH have more space available faster if necessary. my Brother had his stepfathr in dallas in a medicaide facility and then moved him to arizona. lots of paperwork and waiting for a 'bed' to transfer to another state back into their own medicaide facilities. divvi
Imohr, Your Attorney's secretary is correct when she tells you they do not count the home but she is incorrect when she says you don't need to put the home in your name when you are ready to place. She did not bother to tell you that if you sell the home before your husband dies while drawing Medicaid that they will require payment of the amount they have spent on him from his part of the home sale unless you reinvest it in another home within a certain amount of time. She did not bother to tell you that also especially if you place him in Ohio that his part would go into the estate and they will collect from that when you die. It is complicated to be sure but the main difference in Ohio and WV is that in Ohio they go after anything the person owned at death, they have the expanded estate recovery in Ohio so try not to place him there.
Imohr also, even though you have other property that you need to place in your name, that property will be counted, even if it is in your name only so just be aware of that. You will only be allowed up to $109,000 to keep plus your home and one car. If your homes are worth more than $109,000 then katie bar the door.
Really Imohr, each State does their own thing but they are really not very much different in what they count and what they do not count.
jane you just answered one of the questions that has been out there for awhile. we wanted to know what happens if you sell your home and move while the spouse is under medicaide. you said they will want payment from the spouses portion unless you move into a new home within certain time frame. i am guessing the time frame differs from state to state as well? or is it a determined set period ? thats exactly what i was tryying to get across too that one state may have advantages or disadvantages based on state law. how important that can be. thanks again jane for your invaluable input. divvi
Another question, after the AD spouse dies and the community spouse wants to sell the house for whatever reason, such as moving into an apartment, reducing expenses, etc. what happens to the "estate recovery" in that situation? Would you owe the state half of the equity derived from the sale? Is the "estate recovery" lien placed on the property after AD spouse's death.
I went ahead today and consulted the elder Lawyer I consulted with 4 years ago. He reviewed our wills at that time and didn't really do much else. Jane thanks for your info. My lawyer is changing property to my name and making a simple will for me that achieves what I want to achieve. I already have cash in my name except for IRA. He is also licensed in Ohio and Ky as well as WV. He said WV is the most elder friendly state. In WV they do not look at the residence for medicade so I have no worry about any lookback later. We both agreed medicade is unlikely to be a factor but occasionally some will languish for years. He also agreed I should NOT place him in Ohio, which is only 10 miles away because they do the lookback on residence.
Ladies and Gentlemen: one more financial note.....we still had a couple of bonds and an IRA in my husband's name alone (most have both of our names with an "or", so there is no problem with them). While he could still sign his name and to prevent legal hassle later, I took him to the bank and we cashed them in and put them in a separate checking account (different from our regular ones) so the funds would be there and I could get to them in the future. Just wanted to mention this in case some of you might want to take similar steps.
sure you can cash out the IRA if you're old enough. BUt I was told (by my el att'y) that any money in his or my savings or checking accounts (except for his IRA) would be considered countable assets and split up to the 109,000. Even my money that is in a business account, all mine. I think this is the same thing as stuntgirl having assets and hence possibly being ineligible for stuff.
Yes it is correct that you can cash out an IRA with no penalty at 59 1/2 but did you also know that you can start withdrawals of IRA's with no penalty at age 55 once you have retired if you sign forms that you will take the same amount each year for 5 years? of course that will not help any of us with this disease but it is something good to know.
divvi, the time frame for reinvesting in a new home place is 3 months, I am not sure about a community property state. the purchase of the new home must be the same or more than the sale of the old home, and by the way you can't sell the old home at a reduced value or that is considered an improper transfer. It is best not to sell the home once the loved one goes on Medicaid if you can help it until after their death.
Jimmy, after the spouse dies if you have the home in your name alone, no problems sell and do as you wish with the money. If the home is still in both names and the home does not go through probate. and you do not live in a State with expanded estate recovery then you can still sell and not even re-invest if you want to, but if you live in a state with Expanded estate recovery (meaning they also consider assets not going through probate to be part of the estate, in those states such as Ohio, they will invoke estate recovery of the NH spouse part of the sale. (That is why it is very important if you have POA with gifting that you go ahead and place the home in your name alone once you start to apply for Medicaid.) Thus, no estate recovery no matter where you live.
When a State has what is called expanded estate recovery they will count anything that was in the deceased spouse's name immediately before death.
Imohr, you never have to worry about a lookback between spouses. they count the assets of both people. The home is not a countable asset but even if it was they do not impose a lookback or transfer penalty between spouses.