This is a new twist. Recently, I sold one of our rental properties. I signed all of the initial contracts myself and gave the Real Estate Broker a copy of my husband's Power of Attorney authorizing me to act on his behalf in all matters. The attorney/Title Officer who is handling the closing advised that he requires Power of Attorneys be less than ten years old and ours was almost ten years old now. HELLO! DH hasn't been able to sign his name for years. I have had to get our attorney involved since he wrote the original lPOAfor us and we jumped this hurdle. It certainly threw me for a curve, though. Have you ever heard of POA's expiring if no mention of an expiration date is mentioned in the document? My attorney said it was up to the individual whether to accept it or not, but I believe he is reluctant to speak ill of another attorney. Seems to me that if there is a way to make our lives a bit more challenging, they'll find it.
After working for attorneys for almost 30 years, I have never seen a DPOA that would be determined to expire, unless it had an expiration date in it.
Some states used to require renewal of powers of attorney for them to be valid. Now, most states permit a "durable" power of attorney to remain valid until you die or revoke the document. If a title insurance company/title officer is handling the closing and issuing title insurance, they may be the one who is objecting. If so, they should get an underwriting opinion from the title insurance underwriting who is issuing the policy.
my understanding is also good until revoked or death. i wouldnt let that ride either! thats exactly WHY we have them in case they become incapacitated later on. and even if they can sign they have to be able to read and understand what they are signing! that would certainly peeve me bigtime -never heard of it either! i dont think it would hold up having it called expired if you challenged it esp since another one cant be done -. divvi
I am getting a bit annoyed to hear that these dpoas are not being accepted..twice this week, I had problems with poas. the first was a dr. office, who refused to accept it because it was not witnessed by 2 people. The other was a bank who said that the dpoa did not specifically mention safety deposit boxes. But I did get my revenge. I zipped home, got my dw, and then back to the bank. She printed her name, but could not spell it, so I told her the letters one at a time....then she could not print a u nor a c. Finally, the bank manager told her just to initial it. I stepped in and said "no, you asked for a signature, and we will wait until she can do it.....45 minutes later, the manager showed her frustration and finally accepted her name as she printed it. I told her how nonsensical she just wasted everybody's time, when a simple poa would have sufficed. I am just so tired of getting all these medical release fors, poas, dnr's, and find that most places will not accept them because they are too easy to revoke. I think I will enroll into a law school and study how to file class action suits for ad patients.....
Someone might be confusing the expiration date on the part where the Notary shigns and seals the document. His seal is not good except for a few years but that is only for the original document. It is good from then on. If a POA has an expiration date it must be listed in the original document.
Bill, I don't think I understand what you wrote. Surely the document wouldn't expire on the date the Notary's license expired. There is no expiration date on the document. I'm soooooooo upset with that Title Company. I feel like taking him along and doing what Prranque did. I loved your story Phranque. You're priceless!!!! Marsh, maybe you can get the bank to assign a new safe deposit box key to your wife. In your small village, surely they would understand.
well i just had to send DPOA to the credit company to be able to deal with DH credit card. even though i have the same co card they refuse to speak to me about his card but do want me to pay his bills.. ha! i sent a copy of dpoa -we'll see what transpires when its received. the notary has to have a current stamp at the TIME its notorized. it doesn tmatter if it expires later. its when it was done that matters. our DPOA were done by our atty and notorized but no witnesses. the DPOA for healthcare was notorized and 2 witnesses unrelated to either of us as per tx law. divvi
My daughter already has a key and her signature is on file for my safe deposit box, her name is also on my checks. Other daughter is user on my credit card. My financial advisor will act as trustee of our wills if I die before my husband. With DPOA and health surrogate signed I hope everything is covered/All investments are in a revocable trust. I have also made funeral arrangements. What am I forgetting?
A few years ago, we refinanced the house and I used the DPOA to do the paper work as his Mental Illness and Learning Disabilities prevented him from being able to sign. With all paperwork in hand, at the signing the TITLE CO> refused to accept the DPOA because it was "too old", on letter size paper. Theywanteds a newer one on legal sized paper. We left. Two days l;ater the Rep. handling the refinance called, had it set up, pucked me up and we went to a different Title Company. They copied the DPOA on legal size paper (big blank ends on each page of copy), I signed:
his name by my name, as Attorney in fact and then signed my name on the other line oh about 152 times ( lol)
I just keep telling myself all the paperwork B**S** earns us any and all benefits we manage to collect along the way.
Divvi, Good luck with sending a copy to the Credit card company. A few months ago, Bank of America sent my husband a credit card, I called to try to close the account which had not even been activated, however, they would not close the account on my instructions. I explained the situation, I told them I had POA, didn't matter, they needed (as they said, A copy of the POA) which I sent, however, that wasn't good enough, I had to send one of the original copies I had.
I went through what Kadee did with Bank of America and my sister. After they wouldn't accept the copy of the POA, I sent an original. They still claimed they didn't have what they needed. They needed a "certified" POA. I don't know what that is. I then called (with my financial advisor on the line) and pretended to be my sister. That worked, but I doubt most of us can pretend to be our spouses on the phone.
It must be Bank of America, because I didn't have any trouble closing her Discover and Citibank accounts after sending copies of the POA.
As for the POA expiring they do not, the thing you have to watch for is when your State changes their law. Example: our State when my sister had her POA drawn up did not require the specific wording that she could give gifts to the POA, they did not require this at that time, she would have been able to gift to herself etc until the law changed. After that law changed the POA in our State had to have the wording that the POA was able to give a gift to their own self. She would not have known that at all if I had not had my POA drawn up much later and we compared the two. They were both drawn by the same Attorney, we questioned the difference and he told us that the State changed the law on gifting, she had to have hers updated.
This should not be the case but many times documents are drawn up and certain things change that would require more detail so therefore parts of what would have been intended get let undone.
As for the closing of credit cards, I wonder how they would handle it if they are deceased, might just be better and wait until the person dies before trying to close the account. All you would have to show is the death certificate and if they did not accept that then too bad. I do know in our State that you can't change the name on the telephone bill unless you pay for a new installation even if your husband or wife (whichever the case may be) has had it in their name for 50 years, you can't change to the others name without opening a complete new account and paying what they charge to open it. I did ask if that was the case after the die and they told me yes. I guess that is why you see in the phone book the phone number still in the deceased name, no change to money to pay out.
jane i agree with the new updated wording, our DPOA done back in 2000 has the 'gifting clause'.. and we didnt check it! but it does state in there that medicare, medicaide etc could be handled as an added delegated power. another one we should be careful to include is TAX issues! and specially the IRS mentioned in the DPOA!
in my case its not wanting to close the acct but get a new card as i had unautorized charges on my card-i wanted to cx his and get a new number for security issues. wouldnt do it -wanted him to speak to them. we will run into this same ongoing issue with everything thats in thier name, ie-home bills etc they want to speak to the ONE on the bill!
My Mom had a credit card and I was listed as a second user. I could not close it until she died and then they asked for a copy of the death certificate and it was closed with no problem. Interesting to me was Mom had a checking account at a local bank for 50 years and 15 years ago she added my name to the account. When she died they asked for nothing and left the account as was until I closed it this month.
I still have one checking account with my late husband's name on it. Since all the utilities and a lot of credit cards were in his name, if we ever get a check for a rebate or an overpayment or whatever, I would have no way to cash them if he had no account in his name. Whenever some entity wanted to talk to my husband I would have my son call them and pretend to be his Dad. It was just easier than fighting with idiots......Now I can just tell them he is deceased. Believe it or not, I have had one customer service person ask what "deceased" meant.
I did have one company tell me that they needed a notorized copy of the POA for any POA that was over 2 years old. I also ran into problems just trying to get my name on one account. I had called the company and requested the proper form, got the form and called the company again to ensure I was filling it out correctly, and finally sent it with a copy of the DPOA attached. I got it back requesting his signature. So called the company again and attached a not saying he had AD and could not sign his name. Still waiting to see if it has been resolved.....
I have one credit card in my name only - have had it for years and intend to keep it. Others were in his name with me authorized signed. On those, I simply cut up the cards, wrote a letter, had "him" sign it and asked that the account be closed. No problems with any of them in doing it.
All utilities were in his name. I personally went to each one locally, with copy of DPOA, and asked that it be changed to my name. No problem with any of them. Only one I haven't tried is Telephone/internet/Dish Network bundle. Think I'll just leave that alone for now.
Vickie, my father died in 1946. It was the 1940s, so there were no telephones available. He put himself on a waiting list for a telephone, which became available 2 years after he died. For more than 20 years the phone was in his name and his name was the one in the telephone book. I don't know if my sister had problems closing it down when my mother moved to a new area and needed a new phone number.
Careful about "signatures". I was endorsing my husband's small pension checks for deposit only in our joint checking account. A friend who works in the bank said-very bad idea-could be fraud if picked up by the company. I now endorse in his name followed by mine as POA
Checks can be signed "for deposit only" with the account number and no signature.
My husband can't write, his vision is almost gone, but strangely, if you put a pen in his hand and say "sign this" HE STILL CAN! I guess that comes from sheer habit.
I got the credit card companies on the phone and when they said that they had to have his persmission to talk to me, I handed him the phone and said to say "yes" and he did! <grin> However, over the last two years, I've opened credit cards in my own name so that once he passes, I won't have to deal with the old ones any more. I sent a copy of his DPOA to one of them, and they've added me on.
My aunt ran into a problem when she was signing checks for her husband with the bank. Doneit is right, signing their signatures could cause problems. I just put "for depsoit only" and sign my name with POA after it. The bank has a copy of the DPOA and I have not had a problem doing this. I just keep plugging along working on one at a time to get everything in my name only.
News flash, we just went to the eye Doctor office, we have been going to that office for over 40 years, they are now requiring a photo ID of the patient. I guess that is to cut out identify theft. We are living in a brand new world.
When I had the power company change into my name from my husband, guess I was lucky, we were in the middle of complete change from oil heat to heat pump, all was almost installed but we had to have the power inspected before the final turn on, no way were they going to do it for me without first talking to my husband. I point blank told them, "You have no choice, my husband has alzheimer, cannot speak, the heat is off and we have to have heat, I am all you have to deal with," Somehow they took pity on me, asked no more questions and boom the bill now comes in my name only.
I also have Dish network and am dreading when I disconnect. Guess if they no longer get paid and I do not activate the credit card that has just been sent to us I should have no problem there, I will wait and see. I do not plan to activate the new card as it is joint with both of us, maybe that will save me on that one for now. Once this journey is over if I am still left standing I will deal with those issues then. One day at a time, one thing at a time, that is all I can handle for now. I also a while back got one credit card in my name only and that is all I use.
I wouldn't suggest doing anything with a bank, but with things like electric companies that won't listen to reason,I wouldn't be above helping him sign. You know, if you buy something over the internet, they don't ask for a signature!
Jane, not activating a credit card does not always work. When we cancelled DISH and did not get the receiver back to them within the 10 days, they billed our credit card - a card that I had not activated because we were not going to use it anymore. When I worked at a motel in the 90s, we often had people traveling with expired cards. When it was declined, we just entered a new expiration date and it always worked. Yet, a few years ago when we were vendors at a show, a lady used a debit card that she had not activated and of course charges were refused. (only bad card we ever had-fortunately when we called she gave us a good one and was embarrassed. she didn't know she had to activate it).
Moral - you never can count on not activating a new card being refused. By the way - the received the receiver within 10 days, it just did not get processed. It took the 3 months to refund our money.
Charlotte, thanks for the help. For some reason I had a gut feeling I would run into a problem with Dish when I start to drop them. I wonder if I send it signature return receipt required if that would help??? I doubt it, I sometimes think it is better not to even have a credit card, just pay with cash and drop from the face of the earth everything is getting so complicated.
Charlotte, how did you get them to finally acknowledge that they did in fact receive the receiver? Is the receiver the only thing you have to send back???
I cannot get rid of Direct TV...and if you have a problem with DISH, .. put it on VACATION. I think you can renew "Vacation Status" (each for 4 months) 3 times. They do not charge monthly when your service is on vacation. That's what I've done with Direct TV. So far, they are not bothing me...nor are they charging anything. I get a bill, each one for $00.00.
They sent us a box with a UPS return label. I tracked it online so know when it was signed for at the warehouse. They gave me no trouble canceling, just that the receiver has to be received within 10 days of termination. When you get ready to cancel and make your final payment, I would take an old, canceled credit card number and replace. But, then, they can always pull your old billing and get the number. But it would slow them down!!
We had to send the receiver, remote, (take your batteries out if they are newer) and the LNB back - but not the dish itself. We had already moved out of the house when we were told the LNB had to be returned. Fortunately the bank was still in the process of getting it ready to sell.
thank you Charlotte. What is the LNB? As you can see I am a spouse somewhat alone and know nothing about these things. I pay the monthly bill by check so I have never let them draft the credit card. Hope I don't have to have someone climb up on the roof to get the LNB whatever it is??
Just got a letter from one credit card I forgot to cancel. Haven't used it in 24 months - they said, so they are closing the account! One more I don't have to worry about. So, if you don't use the cards for a certain amount of time - they will probably just close them.
I'm interested in the comments about returning DISH receivers. I had satellite internet with Hughes. When I cancelled it, I asked what to do about the dish. They said I paid for it so it is mine. They were going to charge me $100 to come get it, so it is still on the side of our house.
With Hughes you do buy the dish. With DISH and DIrect you do not. The LNB is the part that receives the signal on the dish - the arm attached to it.They may not require that anymore. When we moved from Nevada up to Vancouver, we had him install the dish on my sister's house so we don't have set it up every time we come back. He didn't want to use the one we had in Nevada (it was mounted on a tripode) and said just to keep it. So, when you cancel, you will find out. Jane, you may pay by check, but they require a credit card don't they when you first signed on? As long as you get the receiver sent back in time, there is nothing to worry about. Or you can cancel the card they have on file or change the card to one you are going to cancel, then cancel afterwards.
Thanks Charlotte, I do still have the card I signed on with, it is the one I thought I would not activate. To cancel the card hurts your credit score, we now have our score at 836 and I know if I cancel the card it would bring it down, it is a catch 22. I just wish car insurance, Home owners Ins etc did not use credit scores to set your insurance premiums or I would cancel the card in a heart beat.
Thank you again Charlotte, this is been very good information.
Jane, why does cancelling a credit card hurt your credit rating? I found we had too many cards so I cancelled a couple. I have not checked our credit rating.
Jane, I have the very same question as Marsh does. I read a credit report of ours several years ago and one comment was there were too many "charge accounts". I was surprised that some accounts listed dated back as far as 1960...when my husband lived in New Jersey - (two deceased wives ago) with small town department stores. Since then, he has lived in 3 different countries and retired in Texas. Wouldn't you think ALL stores would close accounts if they are inactive after, say, 3 years?? So, you can't have too many accounts, and you are punished if you "close them"??? I may call a credit reporting agency if I have a spare minute and ask that question. Odd!
Here's the deal: Your credit rating depends in part on how much you carry every month on all of your cards combined. This includes new charges and existing balances. Whether you plan to pay them off in full doesn't affect your score - as long as you make a minimum payment on time - because the bureau doesn't know your intentions.
This amount you owe is compared to your total available limit. The lower the percentage that you're using, the better it is for your score. So if you charge $2,000 in a month and have $10,000 available on all cards, you're using 20 percent of your available credit. That's pretty good. If you charge the same $2,000 in a month but have only $4,000 available on all cards, you're using 50 percent of your available credit, and that's not good.
You should keep your credit-in-use at 25 percent or below.
So if you can do without that third card and still never use more than about 25 percent of your available credit, then close the account. Your rating might drop a few points. If you need that unused credit limit to help keep your ratio low, then keep the card.
There's one big caveat: If that third credit card account is significantly older than your other accounts, and you have a score that's below 760 or so, you may want to keep that third card. Credit scores also look at the length of your credit history. You don't want to throw this off by closing your oldest account.
As long as you get the receiver sent back within the time limit, there should be no problem. Otherwise they would charge you for it and you would just wait until they refund your money. Problem is, you have make payments on the charges until they refund which could leave you with a credit. Another catch 22!!!
Here is my update on the initial posting on this site. RE: my husbands original Power of Attorney supposedly had expired. ?? I had a second one, but the attorney failed to write his entire name on it..using his middle and last name, which is how he is known and always signs his name. (EXCEPT on real estate docs.! OK,.. the combined POA's were taken...thank you!... I left DH with a sitter and went to the closing. The POA's were presented and they noted the same.
Then they asked, Do you have your husband's proof of identity? Identity/Proof?? He wasn't there. Why do they need proof of his identity. I swear that they are absolutely idiots! I askef for the Manager of the Title Company to come in...and asked if I needed to go home, get his Passport which is still valid and bring him in - in his PJ's and "strapped" in a wheelchair with his sitter at his side......(oooooo. I made it sound reeeeeely worse than it was) .... to prove that he was indeed my husband. I did mention that he very well could forget who he was, but perhaps they could match his current appearance with his 5 year old passport photo where he weighed 205 instead of 168...and was photographed in a suit and tie..) I smiled and said that we didn't live very far away and I could certainly do that if they would provide me with a place to bring in in to the building since I hadn't seen a ramp outside..., say, through a back door with help. Ifhe did have some of his "little bitty problems", it wouldn't disturb the others in the office. Smile again....soooooooo willing to do whatever he wanted me to do. Look at him with brown eyes opened big...soooooooo sweet was I.
Manager studdered, stammered, and said, "uh, no, uh, no, uh, it's ok. You signed as his agent...and I'm sure it will be OK."
awgggggggggggggggggggggggggg! But when I got to the car, I giggled! Geez Louise..you'd think I was a gangster!
Nancy B, I have worked in the title insurance industry and for attorneys for over 30 years, have done a zillion closings, and never heard this one! I thought I had seen/heard it all - but guess not. After EVERYTHING is over and done with - please write a letter to the regional office of that title insurance company and give them a blow-by-blow of what you went through. That is totally unacceptable and unnecessary. But.....I think you handled it extremely well. (Giggle)
Vickie You answered the credit question that I was asked, word for word the way I also would have explained it. You beat me to it. Thanks, could not have answered it better myself.
Doesn't make a lot of "common" sense- but that's the way it is. Now, tell me how many people actually figure all that out BEFORE they cancel credit cards?? LOL
Well, I appreciate the compliment - but Jane is the VERY BEST about this stuff. This query was just something I had done some research on awhile back and was happy to share it. None of it is easy to figure out.
oneit, I am not sure of your situation, all are different. You asked what are you forgetting
(daughter already has a key and her signature is on file for my safe deposit box, her name is also on my checks. Other daughter is user on my credit card. My financial advisor will act as trustee of our wills if I die before my husband. With DPOA and health surrogate signed I hope everything is covered/All investments are in a revocable trust.) THIS IS TO QUOTE DONEIT
With the daughters name on your checks, that makes her joint owner unless you have her POA only. Make sure she is not considered part owner if you ever think you will need to apply for Medicaid otherwise they will count this as a gift to her, also if she writes checks you will have to show they were written for you or they can count each check she writes as a transfer from you to her. Investments that are in a revocable trust are countable to Medicaid. Daughter user on your credit card, if she makes a purchase you will have to show that it was purchased for you and not for her.
You may not have a situation where you will ever need to apply for Medicaid but you did ask if you were forgetting anything, just make sure of the above.
Jane, you said your investments are in a revokable trust. Question. Our wills state that when we die all our assets go into the ex. lmohr family revokable trust. Each of our wills say the same. The trust has not yet been established except mentioned in our wills. Will that Do?
Daughters name on your checks. If I put my daughters name on my checks and I die everything in that account will revert to her. Should I do that?