I'm 52 and my husband is 62.......we are looking into NH placement within the next 6 months. So, if our house was placed in my name only and something happened to me first, why wouldn't it (the house) go to those stated in my will?
I guess I'm just confused because the house is in both of our names. I had asked our attorney about putting it in our son's name, but she said that Medicare would look 5 years back, so that was out. This is where I am confused. Maybe I just feel guilty about putting something in my name that we BOTH worked so hard to attain....
Now I'm thinking that the will says my husband and then our son. I have too many papers to review! Help!
It's a long story about my sister - too complicated to explain here. I did explain on another thread (I think if was named My Week - Venting). I understand what kind of lawyer I need. I just can't find one.
AnnMW1157, You do not want to put the house in your son's name, that would cause a 5 year look back with Medicaid (not Medicare as you stated above) we are talking Medicaid.
What State do you live in? Do you have Durable Power Of Attorney? Most all States allow the home to be safe if a spouse is living, the problem comes when the spouse dies and both names are on the deed, once you die your husbands interest in the house would go into Medicaid estate recovery for the amount they had paid for his care. If the home is placed in your name only then if he dies it would not go into his estate for Medicaid recovery.
If you put the house in your name only, there is no 5 year look back penalty, yes they will lookback, but there is no penalty. If he is 6 months away from being placed under Medicaid then you need to get this done now or no later than once you apply for medicaid. Once he is placed and accepted for Medicaid you need to change your will so that the he would not loose the Medicaid. If he receives assets under the will that would cause him to loose the Medicaid and start all over again.
I understand your feelings of guilt, we have been married for 50 years, worked a lifetime for what we have and I also will feel the same guilt IF I have to place my husband and do these transfers, but at the same time I have to tell myself it would be what he would tell me to do if he could. I would be doing this for both of us.
Just remember, I am not an Attorney, I am not an expert, just offering you things to think about. I am surprised that your Attorney did not tell you these things.
Oh Jane.....Thanks so much. We live in Vermont. Because the law does change so often, I am always confused. (no, that part is not new) Since I never had to deal with this with either of my parents, I have no experience in what to do. Right now my husband doesn't even qualify for Medicare, but the 30 month waiting period should end in March. In the meantime, we pay over $1500/month for health insurance. Yes, this is killing us financially, but need to hold onto it until Medicare is available. I'm not sure the best way to "prepare" for Medicaid. I really don't understand the "spend down" part.
AnnMW1157, Vermont does allow all that I have told you about . Don't worry about a spend down until the time you face applying for Medicaid, Your husband would first have to be in a facility either NH or Hospital or a combination of the two for a period of 30 days BEFORE you can even start a long term care application for Medicaid. You may NEVER have to even do this. Do not try to do a spend down before that time. You will have time then. You will be able to save more than you realize you can, just go with the guidance of a good elder law attorney and know the questions to ask. Not every Attorney knows everything, no one does. If you question what he tells you then ASK at the Medicaid office but do not sign to start an application process until you understand what you need to do.
Just remember most people do not even have to apply for Medicaid, something else happens before that time comes. It is too hard to plan that far ahead, especially if you are in the early stages. You will have time to do what you need to. Even if you had been through this with your parents the rules are completely different when it is a spouse. No comparison. the laws change and may not even be the same by the time this ever happens for you. Just know that you are doing the right thing to get things into your name if and when it is required and change the Will if he has to go on Medicaid.
I hope I have helped and not confused you. Remember I am not an Attorney, I am not an expert, I only offer you things to think about, what you do is up to you.
Very good point, Jane. Even I should have realized that the laws would differ with parents vs. spouse.
The only thing we have of value is our home. So, is it a good idea to have the house put in my name now, or should that wait as well too? My husband is in stage 6a-b. The doctor has said it is time to have a nursing home in mind, because placement could be earlier than 6 months. Of course, it could be longer, too. We really have to consider how difficult the Vermont winters are too....
Will there be a time that my husband wouldn't be able to sign the house over to me? Can that be done by our own attorney?
There is a 20 minute free consultation available with an Elder Law Attorney at our local Coucil on Aging.....Is this something I should arrange, or perhaps I will become even more confused? The other thing is that the COA has mentioned that I am not of the age to schedule an appointment......WOW! I'm actually TOO young? I know my husband wouldn't understand what the attorney would tell him, much less ask any questions.
Again, thank you so much for your help. You don't know how helpful you are to all of us!
Isn't it horrible how we are 'too young' but we are also 'too young' for this disease! Does that make a difference? No way - this disease doesn't care your age.
Just thought of one more question.......If something should happen to me first and my will states that the house would first go to my husband and then to our son........should that be changed? Wouldn't that leave 100 percent to my husband and then create a problem?
Ann, my in-laws did a quick claim deed to their property in 1980s putting all 3 kids on the deed. My mother-in-law died in 2001. Because my FIL has AD, the estate has stayed as is until he dies, then the house will go to the kids at which time we will sell it (only the land has value since the house has gone into disarray).
AnnMW1157, Do not do a quick claim deed, to your son, it will cause a 5 year look back. Charlotte's in laws did this back when the laws were more liberal and also most likely kept a life estate for themselves, that is why the property has stayed as is. I know I said that you may not even be facing Medicaid but then you also state that your Doctor says it could be less than 6 months, so YES I would get the house into your name now. Leave your will alone until you actually apply for Medicaid then change it and get your husband off the will. If your husbands Doctor is already talking placement you do not have 5 years. Do not mess up here, do not sign anything to your son.
You asked above would it cause a problem if the will was not changed. Read the FIRST comment I made to you again AnnMW1157, I addressed that question then. Read it again and again, there is so much that at first you may miss some of the points I made. I don't mind to answer the question over and over if it helps you but read all I have posted again.
Yes, AnnMW1157, Your husband if in stage 6 is most likely already not competent to change things, only an Attorney can decide this, if your Attorney says he can and is competent to sign then let him, if not ask the Attorney if the DPOA that you have will allow you to gift it to yourself? It all depends on how the Power of Attorney reads and the laws in your state regarding the gifting powers. Get yourself to YOUR Attorney, ask these questions, I would not go to the Local Area of Aging, If the house is all you own then YOUR attorney can certainly handle the deed transfer, if other assets are involved then go to a Certified Medicaid Elder Law Attorney.
Remember, I am not an expert, just a person like yourself offering suggestions to ask your Attorney. What you do is up to you.
My lawyer used my DH Power of Attorney papers so I could sign for him and change the names on our deeds from both our names to mine alone. He also made a new will for me and if I die first half of everything in my name including the deeds will go in trust for my husband and the other half directly to our three children. Husbands will was made a few years ago and he is not able to redo but now he only has IRA in his name.
Not when you have a legal filed POA. If there is dissention with extended family this might not be a good move but in our case it was a simple tax situation within our family. Discuss it with your Elder Care Lawyer.
No not illegal when Durable Power of Attorney allows gifting, However Imohr, if your husband goes to a NH under Medicaid, you die and his part goes to a trust by your will, if the trustee is legally obligated to distribute to him then the assets will be countable and he could loose his Medicaid. You may not ever have to apply for Medicaid but just thought you should know this.
JANET, I also got the list of Elder Care Lawyers from the Houston Alzheimer's Assn. site and it was worthless. I specifically asked for the names of the ones in North Houston, and they only sent me the names of attorneys in their area...SOUTH Houston. So far, my Alz. Assn. has disappointed me NO END. They just refer, refer...but no help, no talk.
HOWEVER, I did get a great list from a top notch Hospice Agency in my area. That's part of the Hospice service...so they deal with Elder Care Attorneys all the time. If you have a Hospice group near you, why don't you call them. I was told there are good ones and bad ones,.. and they are in competition with each other. (Hospice Groups). If one can't help, call another - then another, until you get your list. I loved the information the group gave me and they were not providing Hospice Service for us.
Great! Thanks for the suggestion. I know a hospice social worker from church. I'll ask her about Elder Care Lawyers.
I'm also disappointed by the Alzheimer's Assn. here - mostly because everything in Illinois is focused on Chicago. The way the state is divided into local Alz. chapters is strange. We're in central Il - much nearer Peoria than Chicago, but our area for Alz Assn. includes Chicago and not Peoria.
AnnMW1157 - Just curious about your statement earlier that you have to wait 30 months for medicare to start...wondering why. I know we live in a diff state (Texas) but thinking back, we only had to wait until the beginning of the year when my husb got SSDI...I didn't know about filing for Medicare until I knew about Social Security Disability Income and didn't know about that until I had heard it in a Support Group. My DH was nearly 61 when he got SSDI and then he was 61 when the Medicare kicked in. Just curious about that 30-mth statement & why...
natsmom--There are currently only 2 exceptions to the rule about waiting for Medicare to start for SSDI beneficiaries--those suffering from ALS and those having end-stage kidney disease. There is currently a bill in Congress to eliminate it for all SSDI beneficiaries.
Your husband must have been awarded disability benefits retroactively--they can go back up to 1 year. So combining the 5 month waiting period, his 1 year retroactivity, and waiting until the beginning of the year as you said, it must have added up to the 29 months.
Jane--Thanks for your help--I'm still thinking about what you said on the annuities. If I need to, I can let go of mine without any penalties--have had it only a few years now, but since I haven't withdrawn anything, I guess that's why. The others do currently have a surrender value that is lower than what was put in. For us, the annuties have been wonderful. They have shielded us from stock market losses; the income they produce is based on the high of the accounts, not when the marked nose dived. However, I understand that we may lose money if I have to get rid of them for the spend down. As you said, there are so many variables, it is too soon to know how it will play out at this point.
marilyninMD, Yes so many IF's that it is hard to plan ahead, anything could happen to either of you, could happen to you before your husband, those are the unknowns. In time you will come to understand what I mean about the variable annuities, they are also an insurance vehicle, you are paying for insurance for the protection. They are doing well because you have not elected to withdraw. If you happen to have to withdraw in a down year it will show you what I am meaning aside from all the hidden fees.
Also be sure in the event that you ever do apply for Medicaid that you are aware these are not the type of annuities allowed by Medicaid, even if you made them income producing, meaning irrevocable and producing and income monthly stream, the annuities that you have would not qualify. They are not set up according to Medicaid guidelines. I am sure you are not concerned with that right now but just wanted to be sure you are aware of this. What you have are called variable.
I now know why I can't understand anything...I have a sinus infection.......I really need to re-read everything when my head clears. Thanks so much, Jane.
natsmom---MarilynMD explained our situation much better than I ever could! Thanks!
I have been reading this thread and a zillion questions pop into my thinking. I am swimming mentally. Ca is also a community property state..and it would seem to me that I would lose far more than $$$..and I questioned Medical's views..that they would consider divorce, after a person gets a dX of ad as a fraud. That said, these wizard of smart lawyers should have at the finger tips methods for us besides the suggestion of divorce and a list of family law attorneys to contact. I need to read more tomorrow. I note that some of the entries are as far back as 2008 and wonder how the laws have changed in the interim.
my opinion only of course but while divorce is a viable last resort option there CAN be substantial consequences for loss of pensions, social security benefits, taxes, insurance, estate laws, medical decision making, and even hospital and nursing home visits rights among others. on top of that a divorce judge isnt under any obligation to finalize a 'suggested' divorce settlement if they think its unfair to one of the spouses, and or / if they find divorce is being used as a sham to qualify medicaide. in this instance they are able to rule accordingly as they see the law and not as 'suggested' by divorce attys. its not a cut and dry theory. its a serious step and you should make sure you talk with a very good atty who is expert in medicade AND divorce laws in your state, about complications and All consequences prior to taking this step. just something else to have to think about. divvi
Or, you may just have to use your assets to pay for the care as many of us have had to do. I know that I would sure like to have the hundreds of thousands of dollars back that I spent on my husband's care....but I am just thankful we had it.
That is why I advise everyone to purchase Long Term Care Insurance early in life before it is too late. I have a policy that I bought after my husband was diagnosed. That is one thing that people who have some assets can legally do to preserve some of their wealth.
I hate that so many of my friends have become impoverished by this disease....it is not fair, but then, life seldom is.
Plus you should realize that a divorce court judge will probably require enough funds to provide care for the AD patient until his death, which might be more than you would have spent. And you lose the ability to make decisions concerning your loved one's health; to talk to the doctors; to get ANY health information; and to have ANY say whatsoever about where he is taken and what is done to him.
We are all concerned that we don't lose everything we've worked all our married lives accumulating, but I am living my life knowing that I have to look myself in the mirror every day, knowing that I did the best thing for my husband. I love him and want to make certain that his last days are spent the way he would have wanted them spent. The Lord has provided for us, and I have faith that He will continue to do so.
I can't afford a nursing home, and I work full time, and he has to have 24/7 care, so my solution was to have inhome health agency for three weeks a month ($2,400) and use my 5 days of respite for the Mon-Fri for the 4th week of the month. That way it was possible. Sure, I'm using my retirement funds to help out, but hopefully I will be replacing them AFTER. I would have continued to work past retirement age anyway, because I want to travel, and I couldn't do that on what I get from SS.
We all have to make decisions that we can afford, both financially and of the heart. Most of us did not plan on having AD be a part of our lives, and didn't have LTC in place. I could and do kick myself for not buying it.
However, my husband is at home, and I'm with him in the evenings and at night and on weekends (I will be the first to admit that weekend caregiver services with 4 hour minimums is pricey for dinner and a movie! - I am fortunate to have a Hospice volunteer every other Saturday for 4 hours to get my nails done and get groceries!). I also do grocery shopping on my lunch hour if necessary once a week. And my husband hears "I love you" each night - so if he goes before I wake up, it will be the last thing he heard.
I know in PA in a no fault divorce, the disabled or incapacitated spouse gets 60% AND THE OTHER 40% of all assets.Happened to my daughter. Her husband got on disability(faked it),then left and got 60% of everything including her retirement
Thank you one and all for the sage information and I also feel divorce is not the right thing for me..I think our kids ( my step kids) would have a very hard time with this inasmuch as their mother walked out on them when they were elementary school age and I came into the family when they were teens...from 13 to 17...and to walk out...they may or may not adjust and his family, while the brothers may understand his sister would not and who knows about the nieces and nephews! Not to mention my own family.. I know their opinion maybe should not be a factor but it is. And then there are the other issues as have been mentioned here..I think there is far more risk than to try to do as so many others have which is keep him home as long as possible and in home help where necessary and nh as last resort and hope I can swing it..save for it since we already don't qualify since we have too much.
Our third child was adopted - a daughter who sort of fell out our laps after two natural-born sons. Because of her I have never taken a pet to the pound, or pushed anyone out of the nest before they were ready.. and I am likewise not putting my husband in a facility. We just don't do that here. This isn't at all a judgment on others: my husband has never been violent or nasty, just withdrawn back in the days when he was coming to terms with losing his faculties. I could not NOT take into account the reaction of our children if I did do so.
An interesting turn of events..I just happened to be chatting with someone today who as it turns out used the same elder care attorney I have and the endorsement of her is very good..Like me, newly found sister in Alzheimer's Disease Journey got the same recommendation I did. I don't know if it is sort of the thing to make a ref for divorce to see what else is out there or not..but I find that the more I read about this the less I like it for me..I see that there are risks either way you go and somehow I feel if it was me who had the disease would my hubby leave me? I dont think so..The more I read and consider the ramifications the less I like it and somehow I have to believe that God will help me make the best decision and go forward..either way it is a lose lose..I have to look at myself in the mirror and if I can't say I did the best I could by my hubby, family members point of view notwithstanding, I would have real trouble with myself. I'll keep you posted.
I have a prenuptual agreement protecting my assets, which should apply in the case of divorce though it does not protect my assets from having to be spent down before qualifying for Medicaid. But I think my approach instead will be to try to pass my assets on to my kids. I can pay their college tuition instead of using their college savings accounts and it doesn't count as gift (the college accounts can then be used for other things--they aren't the limited tax-protected kind). I'm becoming convinced of the value of young people inheriting money in their 20s when they need it most instead of when their parents die. I'm safer than most because my defined benefit retirement plus social security will be good, particularly if I can keep working.